Finale - That's It, and That's All (For Now) - Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James, feat. Alexa Hulsey

Alexa Hulsey, Encircle Acupuncture

Podcast TRILUNA 5/7/21 Podcast TRILUNA 5/7/21

Ep020 - One Size Fits None: The Future of Corporate Wellness - Michael Susi

Thanks for listening to Wellness, Community, Magic, a podcast with a pro-donut, anti-racist, Glenda-the-good-witch agenda. In this episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James join LinkedIn's Director of Global Wellness, Michael Susi, for a discussion around gummy worms, stress, and where corporate wellness programs fail.

If you (or your team) struggle with constant stress and burnout, this one's for you.

Join us next week for our season finale!

Links:

Podcast TRILUNA 4/26/21 Podcast TRILUNA 4/26/21

Ep019 - Writing Your Origin Story - Jenn Harbin

In this extra-special episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James join Elizabeth's best friend, Jenn Harbin, for a discussion around identity, isolation, and the complexities of transracial adoption.

Thanks for listening to Wellness, Community, Magic, a podcast with a pro-donut, anti-racist, Glenda-the-good-witch agenda. In this extra-special episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James join Elizabeth's best friend, Jenn Harbin, for a discussion around identity, isolation, and the complexities of transracial adoption.

If you have ever considered adopting a child, this episode is for you.

Join us next week for a season send-off straight from our team retreat. There's big news coming -- you don't want to miss this one.

Links:

Instagram: @imjennharbin

Twitter: @jennharbin

Full Transcript:

[00:00:00] You know, there's a beautiful story of the decision they made to adopt, what went into that decision. I was told that story and I love that story, but what's missing and what had been missing for me for a very long time is like, what is the beginning of that story for me?

[00:00:20] That was the voice of Jenn Harbin, a Korean American adoptee, who was adopted from South Korea by a white family and raised in a small city outside of Shreveport Louisiana. She spent most of her life in the South, but recently moved to Seoul to further explore her identity and connect with her birth country, culture and language she never knew growing up. Today we're talking about identity, isolation and the complexity of transracial adoption.

[00:00:50] Hi everyone. We're your hosts, Ashley Brooke James and Elizabeth Moore, co-founders of TRILUNA and this is the Wellness Community Magic podcast; a [00:01:00] podcast with a pro-donut, anti-racist, Glenda-the-good witch agenda. We're here to take on diet culture by making self-care realistic, sustainable, and inclusive. So settle in, get cozy and join us on our journey to build community and redefine wellness. Let's get started.

[00:01:21] Well, this is pretty special because Jen is your best friend. I remember the first time that Elizabeth and I decided to be business partners and we were working and she was like, I'm meeting my best friend Jenn after this. And, you know, just talking about you and I thought you were white. I did. And then I saw you and I see this beautiful Korean American [00:02:00] individual with all these tattoos.

[00:02:03] I was like, she's pretty bad ass. I'm like, probably wearing a leather jacket. It was the summertime. So she had short sleeves and I saw all her tats and I was like this is why I love Liz because every time I meet one of her friends, I never know. Like I said that, right. I never know who I'm going to meet. I never, you know, and I just love the diverse group of friends that you have.

[00:02:30] And before I really start rambling on about how much I love you personally, I want to ask the most important question of all, and that is what donut are you and why? Ooh. All right. I, I, this is a very important question. So I would call myself a ginger lemon cake donut. Yeah. [00:03:00] With like a lavender honey frosting.

[00:03:06] Yes honey. Damn, I'm hungry. Not a classic glaze this time. But we sold out of those. This is, this is, tell me more, tell me more. Yeah, why, why, why? These are, all of these are a combination of all of my favorite things from really like a sensory kind of element. Like ginger, I love ginger. It's like spice. It feels just good for me in terms of just like good for my soul. Lemon I drink, I make a lemon water like every single day. I just like, I just love like the cleansing, I guess, of lemon. Lavender, I love, I love like just the, the scent and the calmness that it brings. Yeah. And I just love cake donuts.

[00:03:53] Thank you for breaking that down. I love a lot of those things on that list. Definitely lavender. [00:04:00] I'm a big lavender person and I'm just recently have been craving ginger all the time. Yeah, she really has.And no listeners, I'm not pregnant.

[00:04:11] You know people ask anytime you're craving something. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you guys will be one of the first to know. Right. Because Liz won't be able to hold it in. Yeah. I agree. I love lemon is like that. Like any lemon curd kind of thing. I love the flavor of lemon. It's such like a bright, happy, but also complex and a little bit sour flavor. So that, yeah, that makes sense.

[00:04:35] I get it. I get where you're going. So Jenn, can you tell our people a little bit about who you are and what it is that you do? Absolutely. Uh, so I am a mobile product manager for iHeartRadio and I care deeply about humanity and building a better future for [00:05:00] generations to come. And you grew up and now you're from, you've been in Nashville for a long time, right?

[00:05:06] Uh, so I originally grew up actually in a small city called Bowser City, which is right outside of Shreveport, Louisiana. I moved to Nashville right before high school, right before high school in, uh, 2000. And since then you have been all over the world and the country, you have moved and hopped around.

[00:05:31] And one of the things that you and I have had many, many, many, conversations about is about how where we're from and how we're raised and who were raised by plays into our identity. Will you talk a little bit about your trips around the world and then about your trip to Korea and how that has influenced your philosophy of identity?

[00:05:52] Absolutely. So I was born in South Korea and I was adopted at six [00:06:00] weeks by a white family and raised in Louisiana, as I mentioned, uh, until I was about 14. So I have two older brothers. Uh, they're my, they're my adopted brothers. They're older than me and you know growing up in Louisiana, there's not a lot of diversity as you can imagine.

[00:06:21] Um, and so that was a big part of how I made sense of the world. Right? And in terms of developing my own identity, I didn't necessarily have, I would say like a reflection. Right? Of, of these features, of these eyes, of this nose, of these things that I think a lot of people have that are not adopted or are transracially adopted specifically.

[00:06:48] So in order to feel like I could like belong or develop some sense of belonging outside of what I looked like I often [00:07:00] felt like I needed to, uh, you know, I guess like you say, assimilate and be like everyone else. And so that really became a part and it's still something I have to continuously try to unlearn is like trying to assimilate, trying to be like everyone, trying to fit in every square inch of, of place of where I am.

[00:07:20] So that I would say that was probably the, you know, the most influential part of developing my sense of identity as, especially as an adolescent, as you can imagine. Did you ask questions when you were young to your family? I did. And you know, we had the talk, you know, when I was a kid, I can barely remember, like I probably don't, I was probably maybe like maybe six or something. I don't know.

[00:07:46] And in that, you know they tell, they told me, you know there's a beautiful story of the decision they made to adopt, what went into that decision, the story of, of all these [00:08:00] interesting, like crazy events that happened that led them to where I came to them finally in Louisiana.

[00:08:05] And I was told that story and I love that story, but what's missing and what had been missing for me for a very long time is like what is the beginning of that story for me. Right? And that's not to negate or take away from that beautiful story that exists with my family. But the reality is, and I think this is something that is not really widely understood or known about adoption or just, or transracial adoption, like whatever parts of adoption that exists today is just like there is a Genesis and a story for that child that happens.

[00:08:46] There are circumstances. There are different macro factors that create these circumstances for these children as a result of their need to be adopted. Yeah. I, I feel like I [00:09:00] rambled along. No, the whole point of this podcast is for you to talk so there's no such thing as rambling. Um, no. So you, you like really dug in, in the last few years on what it means to be an adoptee, what it means to be Korean American, and then you actually went to Korea. Right? And had a year, not quite a year, right?

[00:09:20] Almost, not quite, yeah. It was about eight months. Yeah. Will you tell us about that experience? Absolutely. Thank you so much for asking. Uh, you know, I, it's, it's, it's crazy to think. Right? Like my whole life, I never really questioned if there were other people like me. Like I just thought for whatever reason that I had this individual experience of being adopted by a white family and raised in the South.

[00:09:48] And even though I met other Asian people along the way, be it very small since I grew up in the South, it never really occurred to me that there would be other Korean adoptees like me and that they would have the [00:10:00] same questions and the same experiences and that's just something that honestly has never crossed my mind until I moved to San Francisco in my late twenties.

[00:10:08] And I discovered this nonprofit specifically for Korean adoptees that educated other Korean adoptees and their families just about how, you know, how to like help Korean adoptees, like understand the history and, and their identity and, and just connect honestly with other Korean adoptees because they think that's what was missing for me most growing up was this ability to really connect with people that could share a similar experience, could share a similar feeling.

[00:10:42] And that was really isolating. And so because I grew up that way, not only with that feeling of isolation, but also this disconnected feeling of who my Korean identity is and what that looks like. And also not having [00:11:00] this source I would say of, of pride in that. Right? Like I always felt ashamed to be Korean.

[00:11:06] I always like hated to be Korean because it wasn't what I saw in the community. It wasn't what I saw in the media. So I had to like really kind of like unpack that and as an adult, which was really, really hard to because those kinds of feelings, that kind of shame, that kind of anger, if you will, is something that you have to bury constantly or else it's really hard, you know, otherwise it's hard sometimes just to get through the day.

[00:11:36] And I made the decision to move to Korea because I felt like I still had a lot of that inside me that needed to be explored further and reframed and to something more positive and something that I could learn more about myself, but also hopefully maybe teach others to take that like darkness, take that like hard, [00:12:00] take those hard feelings and turn them into something that can be more powerful and, and, and good if that makes sense.

[00:12:07] So that was really, I would say the motivating factor for going into Korea. Not only to just explore my roots and culture as often people like to say, but it was truly, I think, a way to kind of reclaim my identity as a Korean, um, and what that actually means. And along the way I actually learned what my identity is as an adopted person and what my identity is as an American.

[00:12:38] And so it's like, it was really an eyeopening experience to think about identity and all of the factors that actually go into that. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So, and you correct me if I'm wrong. So it's safe to say that you didn't have these conversations with your parents growing up? Exactly.

[00:12:57] So can you tell me what it was like [00:13:00] growing up with white parents? Absolutely. Um, you know, we never talked about race. Um, I was always told I'm Korean, you're born in Korea. Right? But that is the extent of which, uh, those conversations took place. I experienced racism growing up and my parents did the best they could to, to comfort me and try to help me make sense of that experience but I, you know, I, I think it's very, it was difficult for them to a, to probably see it happening to their child. Right? It's like, it's, I think that is probably painful in and of itself, but then also, probably, and this is where I see as a failure on the system of international adoption, right, is they didn't have the tools, resources, knowledge prepared to comfort their child.

[00:13:58] Right? And so I have, [00:14:00] there's a lot of multifaceted aspects of the situation because I, you know, they're my family, I love them wholeheartedly. And they have given me nothing but love and compassion and I'm so grateful but because my family is white I think that it is beyond something that they've internally dealt with themselves because they're not Asian.

[00:14:27] Right? Because they're not Korean. And for them to know I think exactly how to help me with that situation hasn't, I don't think it's been, it definitely has not been easy. We've talked about it more since I've been an adult and trying to help them understand that. You know my parents, they get very upset whenever I've, I've told them about my experiences with racism as they would, they're my parents and they don't want their child to go through that but I see this reaction as in or their reaction as in, they can't really comprehend why people [00:15:00] act this way and like, they don't see color. Right?

[00:15:03] That's like often what I hear, which is, which is the problem. And I told them, I told him, I tell them this all the time. Like you, it's, you can't be colorblind because your daughter is here. Your daughter is not white. And even though yes, you and your own experience and love for me as your daughter may not look at me as different, others and the world do. And you can't take your individual experience, your individual reality and generalize it to the fact to where you ignore it, if that makes sense.

[00:15:44] Yeah. And that's a lot of why we talk about there's no such thing as not racist. You are either racist or you are anti-racist. You are either working to break down the system or you're participating in it. And love and compassion isn't [00:16:00] enough to make you anti-racist.

[00:16:03] It's like a very active understanding of the world and how it actually operates. Absolutely. I have a lot of thoughts going through my mind. I don't know if you watch "This Is Us" but it's a story about a black man who was raised by a white family and he's really going through and like pulling back some stuff and really digging in to, you know, his shadow work.

[00:16:26] And one of the things that they talked about on the show was when he was young, he would make up a family in his head. A black family in his head that he always wished would come get him. And that made me feel like, you know, but he also said a part of him wouldn't allow himself to go further into those dreams or thoughts because of the love and compassion that he did have for his white family.

[00:16:55] So my question to you is, did you have that? Did you experience [00:17:00] where you had like a made up family that you would like retreat off to in your mind? Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, I would, you know, I think I've always had this idea of another family, you know, and I, it didn't really I think solidified for me as much as when I went to Korea the first time. For the first time, actually a few years ago, I went back to Korea. Obviously I was born there. Um, and I learned that I had four biological sisters which I never had known before. This was something new that I learned looking at my Korean adoption file which is often different than what you get in your American file because of translations and things like that don't make it quite easy.

[00:17:54] So yeah. You know, growing up I don't think I had this, I don't know, I don't think I had a strong [00:18:00] sense of what that other family would look like if that makes sense but I did always have this yearning of seeing someone that looks like me and knowing like whose nose I have, or like who who's like, what are these like little mannerisms that I have and where did those come from?

[00:18:17] And that's like purely a biological aspect, right? Like of course there are parts of me that are environmentally influenced as part of like where I grew up, who my family is, things like that, but I think that there's a deeply biological and psychological need to see in some kind of reflection.. And that's, uh, I think that's like what I really yearned for was maybe not necessarily this other family but this like reflection of who am I. Who looks like me and who it, because I think also in that you have this sense of belonging and trust, if that makes sense.

[00:18:52] Like not that I don't belong and trust with my own family, but when you, again, like see someone physically who looks like you, I think [00:19:00] there is a different kind of connection. Absolutely. Okay. This is, uh, I'm gonna put a little like caution right here and you can answer this if you want, but I've gained a lot of interest I think since the recent, you know, episodes of This Is Us and knowing your story and having other friends.

[00:19:25] So when I think of trans racial adoptions and white families adopting in Korean babies and black babies, I can't help but to think there's a sense of saviorism. Oh yeah, for sure. Right. Do you mind speaking on that? Like do you have thoughts around that? And again, if you, if that's too, if, if that's too much, then when we don't have to answer. No, I'm glad you brought this up because I think this is actually, plays a big role in the narrative [00:20:00] around transracial adoption, international adoption.

[00:20:04] That again, I think creates this kind of singular view focused on the story around the adoptive family and the child but there is an absence of what happens before that and what are the other factors around that? You know, and, and in that I can share a little bit more specifically about like the history of Korean adoption and where I also felt that yeah, where I feel that, um, you know, white saviorism and, and other factors as well, play into adoption specific to Korea.

[00:20:41] There's so many layers. Okay. So first of all, there's like this humanitarian aspect that happened around the 1950s because of what happened in the Korean war. This was also in the midst of like a post-World war II baby boom, for example. So it was like, there was like this huge need for people to have children in the [00:21:00] West. It was such an interesting mix of factors that played into the Genesis, I would say, of Korean adoptions. So, um, after the Korean war there were a lot of mixed babies because you had Korean women with military men who had these children and these men were shipped back.

[00:21:18] And then these women were left without men to help take care of them. And in Korean society, and at the time there was no existing like social welfare infrastructure to take care of that. Um, so in addressing the need of those orphaned and abandoned children as a result of the war and so a lot of these efforts were pushed forward by humanitarian organizations, primarily Christian.

[00:21:47] So you can start to see the kind of like political, economic factors at play here, right, that brought about adoption. So because suddenly there was this bridge [00:22:00] of lack of welfare system in Korea, and this could be supplemented with these different humanitarian organizations, uh, in the West, it created the conditions of where Korea didn't need to set up additional infrastructure to support that. They could start to rely on, uh, these different humanitarian organizations for resources and funding to do that.

[00:22:23] So in 1953, I think, there was a married couple, um, Harry and Bertha Holt, um, out of Oregon. So they decided to adopt a, I believe, it was eight different or eight mixed race babies from Korea. And also too, you have to think about this. So Korea at the time, this was, uh, they had previously been occupied by Japan and Korea at the time wanted a, like, they like, mixed babies was something that they didn't want. They wanted a mono racial country. So this was also what they saw as kind of like a way [00:23:00] to, to empower that strategy as well.

[00:23:02] So there's, there's just a lot of, kind of like dark pieces, yeah, to be quite honest. And so, because that, and like, because of that nationalism and building a monoracial society, also there's cultural factors in Korean culture like Confucianism and there's the importance of this patrolineal line, like carrying it through the father.

[00:23:22] That also like reinforced international adoption as a solution for dealing with this issue of mixed race children. Right? So, uh, this couple that I mentioned, so they went on to found the whole adoption agency, which is actually the adoption agency that I was adopted through. This created and raised the visibility and facilitation of adopted children, which also brought in money to South Korea.

[00:23:46] And at the time, too, as the US was focused on trying to ensure that communism didn't come in to the US, like you could see there's like so many factors at play. This again [00:24:00] served as a, as a means to kind of like protect these different strategies going on from a, from a geopolitical standpoint as well. But back to your questions about white saviorism, I think where that comes into play is this humanitarian effort to save these children.

[00:24:16] Right? And also I think at the time, America wanted to be a part of that humanitarian effort. And in that, even though yes, it may come from like a good hearted altruistic place, you're still promoting this like narrative of saving orphans, saving children, without looking at all of these different economic, societal, historical political factors that are creating these orphans and creating this need for these children to be adopted.

[00:24:58] And, [00:25:00] and also a part of that. It's also continuing to make that system exist. Right, right? Like you're just perpetuating the cycle by doing that. And, um, yeah. That's like the, the critical argument about impact over intent and I feel like you live in this space with these, these two things. You love your family, obviously, and it has done harm.

[00:25:32] And we've talked a lot about like, can you, okay, hold on. I want to figure out how to phrase this because when we, remember that thing that you shared with me, that was like, it's hard to understand how to deal with your trauma when the attackers look like your parents, do you remember that?

[00:25:49] Yeah, I can't quite remember the exact words, but it was, you know, it was when, uh, the shooting happened recently, the six Asian women. Um, [00:26:00] and I remember reading, it was a post I read on an Instagram actually from this other adoptee that was saying, you know, it, it's hard to rationalize violence when the perpetrator looks like your own family.

[00:26:17] And that really stuck with me. And to be quite honest, I, um, you know, again, I think it's, it's, it's difficult to think about where and when race plays a role in, in your life and how you make sense of the world and your perspective on certain situations. And it's been difficult to talk to my white family about the violence that is happening against Black Americans, against Asian Americans, because I think it's something that they have not truly felt to be quite honest because it is...

[00:27:00] [00:27:00] When I read the news about those six Asian women and it was honestly for the first time that I felt something different in my bones that I don't know if I would have felt if I never went to Korea and felt what it was like to exist as a different race, if that makes sense. And it stuck. It, it broke me in a way that I had never felt before and it gave me a different sense of empathy for Black Americans in this country to be quite honest. And I, I will never forget that feeling. And I don't think a lot of people who are not Black or Asian or other marginalized group for, to be quite honest, perhaps have been or felt that feeling, if that makes sense.

[00:27:57] And I can't, it's not an [00:28:00] intellectual thing. It's not a, it's truly not like, you know, I think it's so easy sometimes to cop out on, on someone's ability to understand or comprehend or things like that. But it truly, this like feeling that I can't really describe. I can only just try to, but it is not only a feeling right?

[00:28:21] You have everybody's shoving it in your face. You have to talk about it. You have to be strong. You know, we don't really have time to be weak in it all. Yeah. You know, this was a really hard week and I haven't. I've had to work. I've had to get up every day, put my game face on because I don't have that privilege, you know, to sit back and kick my feet up.

[00:28:48] So it's more than that feeling in the bones. It is something that you gotta, it's constantly like, yeah there's tragic incidents that replay in your mind but [00:29:00] then the fact that I have no space to just be free of this. None.

[00:29:12] Yeah. So when it happened, when the incident in Atlanta happened, I was kind of lost for words, in the sense of, of course I had empathy for you, but it was hard because like, you know, I have a really great relationship with you and I have some great relationships with other Asian Americans, but when I take a step back and I think about Korean Americans as a whole, and I'm speaking on also some of my friend's behalf during that time, it was really hard for some of them to support the Asian Americans [00:30:00] because as Black people and you can look at movies, you can, you know, the Asian man always thought we were stealing or we were, you know, we weren't good enough.

[00:30:09] You know I had some deep conversations with some of my friends. Obviously I'm a community activist and I'm fighting on behalf of everyone and you know, it really, like I came back and I told Liz, like, I didn't even think about it like this, you know?

[00:30:25] And I had a conversation with my husband. And I guess the question that I have for you is like, obviously you are dealing with and feeling so many different things, but I think it's also important to understand that all of that comes from white supremacy culture and the delusion of white supremacy. Like that, that is born of the hierarchy, the false hierarchy that is established by white supremacy culture.

[00:30:54] Right. That is true. That is so true. I guess what I was saying [00:31:00] is like, I'm sure that you heard that, right? That there was some black Americans that are just like, why should we support the Asian Americans when well. The media also put more weight on the Black community supporting the Asian community than the white community when they should have been doing the work in the first place.

[00:31:17] What was your feelings around that? I guess that's what I'm getting too. Did you have feelings? Did you even have time to process that? Because like, for me, honestly, I did in the midst of the conversation, but I was trying to be strong for you in the community.

[00:31:32] Right? And like, get this word out there. So did you have that time to kind of think about that? I, I, I did. I honestly like don't, I mean although I appreciate, and, and, and so grateful for your support and support by any Black American, I did not expect like, I don't expect that. Right? I do expect [00:32:00] it from my white family.

[00:32:02] And to be quite honest it's been really hard as a Korean adoptee with a white family to have these conversations. And I've spoken to a lot of Korean adoptees. I did actually that weekend after that incident happened and a lot of Korean adoptees white families weren't there for them and they didn't ask how they were feeling. They didn't ask how they were affected.

[00:32:35] And that is, that is a very, again, isolating and difficult place to be as an Asian American who not only has an Asian American community really, you know, unless you grew up in an area where you perhaps have Asian-American friends or you were exposed to Asian American community.

[00:32:57] Like, there's an absence of that already as an, [00:33:00] as a Korean adoptee, but then it's almost as if you can't connect with the Asian Americans that are hurting because there's an absence of understanding that experience too, because there's a difference, right? Like my parents didn't immigrate here from, from Korea and I'm like a second generation, third generation.

[00:33:18] So there is like that isolation of itself and then there's the isolation of like my family is white and they don't really know what or how to say to things to comfort me in the way that perhaps they would if they were Asian-American. And that is hurtful to them which I understand because they don't know how to, they don't know how to separate that from them as a parent.

[00:33:40] Right? And I, again, put that on the system of international adoption not helping parents truly understand how to have these conversations when your child is a different race, how to support them when the world treats them differently and how to give them the language to even comprehend or make sense of [00:34:00] these kinds of things to where they feel like safe.

[00:34:04] You know, it hasn't been until recently I've done a lot more research in terms of looking at things like identity and what that means and I think that there is this intersection of race and culture and let's say nation or country to which you identify. And I feel like adoptees, Korean adoptees, again I'm speaking on behalf of Korean adoptees, specifically myself, live within what's been referred to as this other adoptee I read about who published an article on the third space.

[00:34:37] And it is this identity that exists within these spaces. Like you have, you know, within race, within country, within culture, and you don't clearly fall into any of these, you just exist between them. And that's kind of how it feels. And it's both empowering and isolating at the same time. [00:35:00] Hmm. I have a question for you.

[00:35:04] Um, one of the callings in my life in and it came to me when I was 20 that, I mean God told me it was like, you're going to adopt a child one day. I mean this was before I was married, anything like that. And, um, it's still the mission, but I want to know, like, obviously my adoption may look a little different because I do plan on adopting a Black baby, so you know the transracial part won't be there, but what are some things that you wish people knew about the history and the context of adoption before considering adopting?

[00:35:47] You know, I think it's important to reframe the narrative of adoption for the child and, and helping them understand [00:36:00] how to kind of build their own story, if that makes sense, because all adoptees really honestly kind of have an, and I take this, inspired by this writer Jeanette Winterson, and then in her observation about adoption in that storytelling is a big part of who we are because we have to kind of like make sense of our own story and who we are by, you know, recreating.

[00:36:31] Not the word, fantasy isn't the right word, but you're going to have to kind of, you kind of have to like recreate the, the beginning before you were adopted for yourself in a way that is healthy for you and empowering for you. Um, because there's, uh, there's a lot of reasons why someone becomes in a situation where they need to be adopted.

[00:36:56] Um, for the reasons I mentioned specifically in terms of like the history of [00:37:00] Korea, but also just helping them make sense of their own history and their own identity and being able to have those kinds of conversations, um, I think are extremely important for any adopted person because there is always your family, of course, but then there's always this other, right, this other existence that you may not even have the words for or know exactly where that fits into your life or into your like, existence, if that makes sense?

[00:37:34] But it's, I think it's important to help people make sense of that. Um, I'm hopeful for that, um, that, that is able to happen. I feel like our generation is very transparent and open and where we are trying to like work in the trauma and like discover the shit that happened.

[00:37:58] Uh, I have [00:38:00] great confidence in saying that this next generation that, you know, has plans to adopt that it may look just like that because I know for me, I want to be as open and honest with my child. I want them, you know, I want to be able to provide as much information to them as possible. And like you said, help them create the story and not the story that I wrote for them.

[00:38:25] Well Jenn, um, like all of our guests, we could talk to you all day and I have more things that I want to talk about. So we'll just have you back, but I want to ask one last question. And the question is, what do you wish you could tell your younger self?

[00:38:45] I wish I could tell my younger self to take the time to really get to know and under, understand yourself on a, on a deeper [00:39:00] level and really love yourself on a deeper level than what's reflected to you externally in the world. You know, I wish that more young people were given the opportunity and the ability to explore that.

[00:39:20] Damn Jenn. I know, I was about to say mic drop. That was a hell of a way to sign off. Yeah. Mic drop everybody and I'm crying now. Um, Jenn, we thank you very much for sitting down and speaking with us. I mean obviously you know just by being friends with us, no conversation is ever easy. Just so y'all know, this is the stuff we talk about when we have drinks together too.

[00:39:45] Like yeah. Like nothing has changed. So I think that's it Liz. Wait, wait. It's not quite all. Okay. Um, Jenn, obviously you have like a very powerful story [00:40:00] and you are going to be starting a blog and you're featured on a documentary. Where can people find more information about you and get connected to your story in a deeper way?

[00:40:09] Yeah. Thank you. Uh, so I'm going to relaunch my blog, actually, Loveletterstokorea.com. Uh, so that is, actually, was originally created when I moved to Korea and I wanted to document my journey, understanding my, you know, if you want to, if you want to peek into the world of what it's like to be a Korean adoptee, going back to South Korea not knowing the language alone, like it's, uh, it's pretty entertaining, I'd say.

[00:40:32] Uh, but I'm, I'm relaunching it really focused on these kinds of conversations around, uh, adoption, around transracial adoption, um, and identity formation because I think it's really important for people to understand and be aware of. Great. And what is the name of the documentary and where can we find it?

[00:40:51] Oh, sorry. It's not a documentary. It's uh, I have, uh, no, no, no. Weren't you on a documentary? You were featured on a documentary? No, I was, I was [00:41:00] featured on, not a documentary. It was an interview that I did with a Korean news station about my journey. So I, that is, uh, also I'll put a post to my blog. You can find that as well.

[00:41:10] Great. Alright Ashley, now that's it. And I guess I saw y'all. She's going to let me wrap it up. Do it how you normally do it just for my sake. Okay. Alright. I guess that's it and that's all. You better leave that part in there. I liked that. I liked that little messiness. Grace, you're fired again. I'm just kidding.

[00:41:33] Thank you for listening to Wellness Community Magic. This season is coming to a close soon while we work on some big projects, but you can keep up with us by following us on Instagram at TRILUNA_wellness, or signing up for our newsletter @trilunawellness.com.

[00:41:50] You can also join our community on patreon @patreon.com/wellness podcast for early access to episodes, behind the scenes [00:42:00] content, and additional wellness resources including a PDF of our Downdog to Donuts workbook. Stay tuned for more updates and keep an eye out for us on Clubhouse as well.

Podcast TRILUNA 4/19/21 Podcast TRILUNA 4/19/21

Ep018 - Earth Magic, Jade Eggs, and the Rare History of Acupuncture - Alexa Hulsey

In this episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James join acupuncturist and owner of Encircle acupuncture, Alexa Hulsey, for a conversation about accessibility, earth magic, and the origin story of acupuncture in America.

This one is for the history enthusiasts and for anyone curious about acupuncture (don't worry, needle phobic folks, she says it doesn't hurt).

Thanks for listening to Wellness, Community, Magic, a podcast with a pro-donut, anti-racist, Glenda-the-good-witch agenda. In this episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James join acupuncturist and owner of Encircle acupuncture, Alexa Hulsey, for a conversation about accessibility, earth magic, and the origin story of acupuncture in America.

This one is for the history enthusiasts and for anyone curious about acupuncture (don't worry, needle phobic folks, she says it doesn't hurt).

Join us next week for a conversation with Jenn Harbin about transracial adoption and writing your own origin story.

Links:

Facebook: Encircle Acupuncture

Instagram: @alexahulsey

Instagram: @encircleacupuncture

Full Transcript:

[00:00:00] But most people don't realize that some of the earliest practitioners of acupuncture in this country where the black Panthers and the young Lords, and they were doing acupuncture to help their community and to help people get off of drugs and stay out of drugs and it worked remarkably well. That was the voice of Alexa Hulsey, the owner of Encircle Acupuncture in Nashville, which has been providing acupuncture in a community setting on an affordable sliding scale since 2010.

[00:00:31] She's also the co-creator of open ACU, an appointment scheduling and electronic health record system for acupuncturists. In 2020, she was named one of Nashville Business Journal's Women of Influence in the trailblazer category. Today we're talking about accessibility, earth magic, and the origin story of acupuncture in America.

[00:00:51] Hi everyone. We're your hosts, Ashley Brooke James and Elizabeth Moore, co-founders of TRILUNA and this is the Wellness Community Magic [00:01:00] podcast. A podcast with a pro donut, anti-racist, Glenda- the- good- witch agenda. We're here to take on diet culture by making self-care realistic, sustainable, and inclusive. So settle in, get cozy and join us on our journey to build community and redefined wellness. Let's get started.

[00:01:21] We are so excited to have you here. We like to start the podcast asking everyone the same question, but let me go ahead and tell you right now, we already have a dozen glazed donuts already that has been given away and we have them boxed up and they're shipped out. So we are no longer in stock of glazed donuts.

[00:01:43] So what donut would you be in line? Well can I be a chocolate glazed donut? Sure. Yes, absolutely. That's me. I'm a Krispy Kreme chocolate glazed donut. There's just a little something [00:02:00] extra about it with the chocolate glaze on top. And I also have a really strong emotional connection to the Krispy Kreme chocolate glazed donut because when I was in college my college cafeteria would have just trays of Krispy Kremes out for the taking every morning.

[00:02:17] And on mornings, when I made it to the cafeteria, I would eat two Krispy Kreme chocolate glazed donuts for breakfast every morning, like all the time. I don't know how I didn't develop like major tooth decay from eating all of these donuts every morning. Um, but I just, it just reminds me of being in college and, you know, just sort of living in the dorms and being young and full of possibilities and eating as many donuts as I like.

[00:02:48] And they're delicious too. Yeah. I really think that we need to talk to Krispy Kreme about a sponsorship. I do. We definitely need to talk to them. Hey, Krispy Kreme, if you hear us, we [00:03:00] are talking to you and just for the listeners out there, I only have six more glazed donuts with the chocolate on top so I'm going to keep an inventory now of what donuts are picked and what goes. It's so interesting to me that most of your guests don't see themselves as a fancy, like sprinkle color.

[00:03:18] I know. Yeah, me too. I mean, we even have. You know, our friends are reaching out to us on the side, we get text message like, why is everyone at glazed donut? So we're just all real salt of the earth kind of people, I guess. But, you know, I think that that's true and I think that that is, um, kind of the classic entrepreneur and just, I think by chance most of our people have been entrepreneurs.

[00:03:43] Yes, absolutely. And it makes sense. You just said that didn't you? Yeah, but I just didn't realize it. I don't know how I didn't realize that before, but most of them are. Huh? Yeah. Hey, Krispy Kreme, you all probably know this cause I'm sure you have your finger on the pulse of [00:04:00] the donut world, but Krispy Kreme is giving away donuts to people who've been vaccinated.

[00:04:05] Yes, I know. That's amazing. I know, it is one for each time, right? Yeah. That's exciting! I think you get it every single day with your vaccine card. So thank you Krispy Kreme for helping people get vaccinated.

[00:04:30] Yes. And if you ever want to do a Downdog to Donut yoga class with TRILUNA, here we are. But enough of that. Today's guest, we are so excited about. Alexa is uh, she's our mentor. She's our friend, she's been here from day one, day one, day one. I mean, I remember having a conversation with you at Burger Up in East Nashville.

[00:04:57] Yes. When we first met and we were asking you [00:05:00] about how we should name our company. That's right. You all didn't even have a name yet. We didn't even have a name. And I remember you telling us, you guys could make something up. And I remember you saying, you know, Verizon is not like a real word. Like they made that up and then I will never forget that.

[00:05:17] And then we became fan girls and then the rest is history. You're never ever getting out of our lives so we're super excited to have you here. Thank you. And I, and I want to say too, that I feel like you all have become mentors to me in a way as well, because you have really become such leaders and showing what an anti-racist wellness organization looks like and how to do that.

[00:05:43] And the work that you all are doing in bridging anti-racism and wellness is so important and you're setting an example for so many of us. I just got chills and I think we just tear up when we get compliments [00:06:00] these days or when people say anything sweet to us. We're like, "thank you." Thank you. But we really appreciate it.

[00:06:07] Can you tell our listeners a little bit about who you are? Yes. Well, my name is Alexa Hulsey. I am an Acupuncturist. I've been practicing acupuncture for 16 years here in Nashville, uh, for more than 10 years and I own Encircle Acupuncture and we are a community acupuncture clinic. We've got two locations and our mission is to make acupuncture affordable and accessible for as many people as possible because it is a wonderful treatment for so many things and I want more people to be getting acupuncture.

[00:06:47] In the way that I do that with my business and the way that my coworkers have, uh, helped me in that is by making our service open to all. And we just have it a policy of all are welcome and [00:07:00] accepted in our clinic and we make it affordable too. Yeah. And I think this, a conversation with you necessitates a conversation about access, I think, and you have a, a pay scale, is that correct?

[00:07:12] Yes. We have a sliding scale, so we charge $20 to $40 per treatment and the way that our sliding scale works is that you as a patient, you decide what you're paying on that scale. So we don't do income requirements. We don't ask people to bring in pay stubs, nothing like that. It's, it's a question of how does acupuncture fit into your life with all of the other demands on your budget and your resources?

[00:07:39] What, what will make this work for you? Some people pay 20. Some people pay 40. Some people pay a different amount every time. A lot of people have an income that fluctuates so they don't know how much they're going to get paid from week to week. So we're really about putting choice back to the consumer or the patient.

[00:07:58] And people are not used [00:08:00] to having choices in healthcare and that idea of giving choice back to the patient is, can really be life-changing. It's, it's a really radical way to do things, but, um, I think it's a way that, that it needs to be done because people, people feel helpless in healthcare. They don't know how much they're going to pay for a surgery or just a procedure or a doctor visit and then they get a bill from the lab for something else, and it's overwhelming.

[00:08:28] They don't necessarily choose who they can see. And all of this adds up to a lot of dissatisfaction in healthcare. So we want to put choice back onto the patient. Why did you choose to go in this field? What made you? Yeah. Um, so I had always been interested in healthcare, so I always knew from a young age that whatever I wanted to do with my life, I want it to be helping people in some way.

[00:08:54] I didn't know exactly what that looked like, but, um, I always knew that my life was not going to [00:09:00] be about making money. I mean, making money's nice. We all need money, but I was, I always knew that I was going to be really mission-driven in my career and I was interested in healthcare. I did not want to be a part of the, uh, allopathic healthcare model in this country.

[00:09:19] It just really wasn't interested in doing that. So I started looking at complimentary health care and what would be something that would interest me? I really first got interested in herbs. I was really interested in herbal medicine. There's a rich history of Chinese herbal medicine and as I started doing research I learned that Chinese herbal medicine is paired with acupuncture in this country, in, in how people are educated and how people are licensed.

[00:09:47] And so it was like, well, I could learn herbal medicine and acupuncture at the same time, get a license to legitimately and legally practice medicine and do it in a way where I would have a lot [00:10:00] of freedom. Um, of course then I became an entrepreneur. So now I have no freedom. Right. Um, but, but I wanted to do it on my own terms and I, and I knew that I could do that with acupuncture.

[00:10:14] And, um, and then I started getting treatments and I just felt like, wow, this is really magic. I can't believe that these needles actually have such profound effects on the body even for, for someone like me, who I didn't really have any health issues. I was just doing acupuncture to try it and I still felt the benefits of it and then started seeing how it benefits people who are really sick and it just, um, it just, it just jived with me.

[00:10:40] I'm really glad that you said the word magic because acupuncture is interesting in that it's like one of the holistic things that the medical world is kind of like, yeah, sure, maybe. Whereas everything else, you know, is like kind of off limits and we know that it works like we have, we have like lots of data that it works, but we don't [00:11:00] exactly know why. Is that correct?

[00:11:01] That is correct. That feels like real earth magic medicine to me. Can you talk about like, what is acupuncture and, and like, why do we not know how it works? It works on the level of Qi (Chi) which is hard to measure, and it's hard to quantify. And that's how, how we really don't know how it works. So acupuncture is the insertion of fine needles into the skin to effect a change in the body.

[00:11:32] And the way that we look at disease and illness is that disease and illness are caused by blockages Qi (Chi) and Qi (Chi) is your energy that runs throughout your body and it courses along Meridian pathways. So these are similar to the blood vessels. Qi (Chi) is invisible. It can't be seen or measured like blood, but we know it's there.

[00:11:51] It's what makes us alive. It flows along these pathways. And so we insert the needles along these Meridian pathways to remove blockages. [00:12:00] One of the really cool things about acupuncture is that it helps the body self regulate. So I think of the needles as a message. I'm sending a message to a patient's body when I put a needle in them and it's calling their body's attention to an area that's out of balance and then the body does the work.

[00:12:19] So people ask me, is there medicine in the needles? No, there's not. The medicine is already in you. You are the medicine. The needles are just bringing that out in you. It's allowing your body to do its own healing.

[00:12:33] There have been some studies to try to show, you know, what happens in the brain. Are there different areas of the brain that are lighting up when an acupuncture needle goes in. Their looking, um, infrared, are there different areas of heat or cold along the Meridian pathway when a needle goes in? And, and yes, some of that has been documented, but the actual mechanism is really impossible to measure.

[00:13:00] [00:13:00] And it is because it's, it's that earth magic. It's something that is within us that is unquantifiable. It's just part of us. It's it's our, it's our life force. That's so interesting. Yeah. So I think acupuncture can be a little scary, right? If somebody, when you say insertion of a needle, that can sound really scary, but they're really tiny needles and I've, I've done acupuncture with you and, and with other places and it isn't painful.

[00:13:30] And can you talk about why it's not and how small those needles actually are? Yes, absolutely. The needles are hair thin. I mean, they're really about the width of two hairs. Um, they go in just under the surface of the skin. So they might be going just to the skin level. They might go into a muscle.

[00:13:48] Sometimes people ask if, if acupuncture affects the nervous system and it does, but the needles don't actually touch your nerves. That would be painful. They, because they're so [00:14:00] thin, it's really just a minimal sensation if any sensation at all. Now, sometimes there is a sensation and sometimes an acupuncturist will manipulate a needle once it's in the body, because that's just one form of acupuncture.

[00:14:12] You do a bunch of manipulation to get the Qi (Chi) moving. That can be an uncomfortable situation sometimes because there, there might be a dull achy sensation. We call it, we call that Da Qi (Chi) , which just means your Qi (Chi) is moving. And it's, so that's a good thing. Any sensation that you feel lasts for about a minute and then that's it.

[00:14:33] So people think needles and they think hypodermic needles. They think of getting a shot. It's nothing like that. We treat kids with acupuncture. I've treated babies with acupuncture. It's a sensation that is, it's so minimal. I don't ever want anyone's anxiety about the needles to prevent them from trying it. And we treat needle-phobic people all the time.

[00:14:57] They come in, they're like, "I'm so scared. This [00:15:00] is going to hurt." And we're like, let's just try it. If you're uncomfortable, we can stop, but let's just try it. And they're, they're always fine. Always. Yeah. It's so you, were talking about how it can seem a little scary. It can seem a little intimidating.

[00:15:13] It's this weird thing of sticking needles in your body. And, and that's another reason why I think it's so important to make our services accessible, because like that, that anxiety about needles, like that's a, that's an area of friction. Like that's, that gives somebody an excuse to not try it. Like, eh, I don't know about the needles.

[00:15:34] And then if it is something expensive, then that's just another reason for them not to try it. And so when we're asking people to do something new and to do something intimidating and to do something foreign, we have to make it as easy as possible. It has to feel as comfortable as possible. And if they really can't get behind the needles, then there is acupressure, right?And will you talk about what that is?

[00:15:59] Yeah. So [00:16:00] acupressure utilizes the same points and meridians. It's just a different tool. It's just using your hands, thumbs fingers instead of a needle. Acupressure is great because you can do it to yourself. We have started putting out a lot of more acupressure resources out there during the pandemic, because we've had a lot of patients who haven't been able to get to us. And when the pandemic started, we, uh, we shut down for two months. We didn't see any patients. We had all these patients contacting us who were used to coming in once or twice a week for regular acupuncture; now they were getting nothing and they were like, I'm so miserable. Please, what can I do?

[00:16:38] And so we started sharing some acupressure resources and it's, it's really effective. It's, it's not the same because when you're doing acupressure to yourself, you're, you're doing the work yourself so it's not like you get to go take a nap for an hour as if you were getting acupuncture, but it's just moving the Qi (Chi) in a different way.

[00:16:58] You can also get [00:17:00] acupressure from another person. A lot of massage therapists incorporate acupressure into their offerings, and it's an incredibly effective. It moves the Qi (Chi) it's just using a different tool.

[00:17:12] I have a question. For so long when you think of acupuncture, you think of the wealthy, right? Like I thought it was expensive until I met you and learned about Encircle. Encircle is actually the first company, the only time I've ever been, but why do you think, because it's such an earthy thing, why do you think that it has been labeled as you have to be wealthy to get this type of treatment?

[00:17:42] Yeah, it's, it's really interesting. Um, because acupuncture traditionally in Asia has been a form of healthcare for everyone. It was traditionally practiced in group settings like we do at Encircle and not in a one-on-one setting. And then it [00:18:00] changed when it made its way to the United States in North America.

[00:18:04] So do you, should we get into a little history lesson? Yeah, let's do this. I was going to say, let's do it. I know where this is going. Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting. So acupuncture really first came to the United States in the 1850s when the first wave of Chinese immigrants came to the United States after the civil war and they were doing a lot of the reconstruction building railroads. And so they brought acupuncture with them because that was medicine that they'd practiced in China. But, uh, but a lot of people didn't really didn't really pay attention, notice, it really didn't become mainstream at all. So then in 1972, Richard Nixon, who was president at the time, went to China.

[00:18:48] It was the first president to do so. It was shocking when he announced that he was going to China. I mean, China was closed off from the West, but he went. And when he went a [00:19:00] member of the white house press Corps developed appendicitis, and he had to have an emergency appendectomy and they did acupuncture anesthesia for his appendectomy.

[00:19:11] And so he wrote about it. His name was James Reston and he was a reporter with, I forget, Washington Post, maybe. Um, he, so he wrote about acupuncture and published this article and that's how a lot of people in the United States were first introduced to acupuncture. And then some other, um, articles follow and people just sort of gradually gained knowledge about this strange form of medicine.

[00:19:36] So a lot of people, especially acupuncturists already know that part of the story. A lesser known part of the story takes place in the 1970s in the Bronx. In the 1970s in the Bronx, heroin was a huge, huge problem. So the black Panthers and the young Lords, both of whom were groups of [00:20:00] community acupuncture, not acupuncturist, community activists.

[00:20:04] So the black Panthers and the young Lords decided to take over the hospital in their community, Lincoln Hospital. Lincoln Hospital had terrible conditions and they documented thousands of complaints from patients. And so they took over the hospital and they had a list of demands. And one of the demands was a drug treatment program because heroin was such a huge problem and they wanted a way to help people get off of heroin without methadone.

[00:20:35] Methadone was the accepted treatment at the time and a lot of addicts were really required to be on methadone if they wanted to get any kind of government benefits. They called it the liquid handcuffs because methadone is something that you have to take everyday for the rest of your life. Um, so, so the black Panthers and the young Lords were looking for other options and one of the black Panther leaders, Dr. [00:21:00] ,he read an article about acupuncture and he thought, well, let's try this. And he and some of the other party members, they found a doctor in Montreal, trained with him. They traveled to China and trained, and they started using acupuncture in their drug detox program and it worked. It worked remarkably well.

[00:21:23] And so this program at Lincoln Hospital, Lincoln Hospital eventually sort of kicked them out. They had to open somewhere else. They were also doing a lot of political education in their, uh, in their drug treatment program. The program at Lincoln Hospital eventually became the foundation for NADA, which is an organization, the National Acupuncture Detox Association, and their five point protocol.

[00:21:47] They have a five point protocol using the ears. It was developed there and it's still used in lots of drug treatment facilities. But most people don't realize that some of the earliest practitioners of acupuncture in this country [00:22:00] where the black Panthers and the young Lords, and they were doing acupuncture to help their community and to help people get off of drugs and stay out of drugs and it worked remarkably well.

[00:22:12] So acupuncture in its early days in this country was a real community based medicine and people were getting acupuncture every day. Hmm. So how did it become something then that's associated with wealthy people? It's really all about pricing. So sort of concurrently with what the black Panthers and the young Lords were doing, the other people who got interested in acupuncture were massage therapists and they thought, okay, this is really cool. This can be a compliment to what we're already doing with massage therapy. And so they really just incorporated acupuncture with the massage therapy model, which is seeing patients one-on-one.

[00:22:50] And so acupuncture became a one-on-one kind of a treatment. And so they were charging pretty much massage therapy rates for acupuncture, [00:23:00] even though in Asia, like I said, acupuncture is traditionally practiced in groups so prices started to go up and then as more people got interested in acupuncture, more white people got interested in practicing acupuncture, and this was soon followed by the regulation of acupuncture.

[00:23:22] So with that came licensing, credentialing, education, continuing education exams, and these are not bad things, but they all add to the cost of being a provider. And so now acupuncture school is three or four years. People are graduating with student loan debt. There aren't a lot of jobs for acupuncturists so acupuncturist become entrepreneurs whether they want to or not so there's a cost associated with that.

[00:23:50] And so it costs a lot to be a provider. And so then unfortunately for a lot of people, it costs a lot to get acupuncture because you're paying, you're still paying [00:24:00] for this one-on-one model. So what our clinic does, and there are community acupuncture clinics like ours around the country, what we do is we go back to the group setting. And so instead of treating one patient at a time, we're treating six, seven, eight patients at a time.

[00:24:16] Everybody can then pay less and we make the same amount of money. I mean, it's simple math and it works. I mean a patient doesn't need an hour of my time to get a good treatment. They really only need a few minutes. And then again, because their body is the one doing the work, what's really important is that they just rest and while they're resting with the needles in, I get to go on and treat somebody else.

[00:24:39] Did the history play a part in you wanting to bring back this community? It's interesting. I didn't know the history before I became a community acupuncturist and a lot of, a lot of acupuncturists have not known the history until relatively recently. Um, I mean, it was kind of talked about in terms of NADA and the [00:25:00] detox association, but really there have been, uh, a handful of people working to try to bring this history to light.

[00:25:07] One is Dr. Tanesha Dandridge. She's an acupuncturist in Sacramento. She's done a lot of writing and education about this. There is the Black Acupuncturist Association. They are doing a lot of educating about this um, and uh, filmmaker Mia Donovan, she's Canadian filmmaker. She recently released a film, um, about this, this history in South Bronx and it's a fascinating film. I encourage everyone to watch it because it's about way more than acupuncture.

[00:25:36] Yeah, that's so interesting. I had no idea. Yeah, I didn't either a lot of acupuncturists haven't known about this. Uh, and, and we need, we need to know about our history. You know, we have to know how this medicine has traditionally been practiced and what works about that.

[00:25:52] And, you know, I think about what you all do with yoga. You're both yoga instructors. Yoga comes from another culture. Acupuncture comes from [00:26:00] another culture. And when we are using these tools from other cultures, we have to be sure to honor where that's coming from. I think that it's okay to use tools from other cultures because they have something to offer everyone.

[00:26:12] Yoga has something to offer everyone, so does acupuncture. And that's how the tradition stays alive is by more people using it. But we have to honor where it comes from. You're absolutely right. And I, and that is something that we both are transitioning to. Um, making sure that we're honoring it. And I don't mean to put you on the spot, Liz, but you know where I'm going with this.

[00:26:38] Liz is actually had a very hard time as a white woman teaching yoga right now with everything that's been going on and we just had this conversation this morning. And so when you say that I can't help but to think of my business partner right now and what she's working through and just trying to find that balance but I know when you do.

[00:26:56] Yeah. I'm actually not teaching [00:27:00] yoga right now unless we really don't have a sub because I'm, I'm doing the work. I'm kind of like in the middle of the work right now. Um, I'm doing a lot of reading and a lot of research and having a lot of conversations and, and trying to figure out how to teach yoga without being appropriative.

[00:27:16] And I just don't. I agree that there, that there is a way to do it and to do it with less harm. I just haven't quite figured out what that is yet for me and so I'm letting other people take the lead, especially Ashley or our company, and then, uh, other BIPOC leaders in this space I think need to be in the forefront right now so I'm just taking a pause.

[00:27:38] I think that's great. And I mean, that is, that's something that, that white women are learning to do and I hope continue learning to do is to, to take that step back and let somebody else take the lead and listen. So I think that's, that's important work too. [00:28:00] Yeah, I think in the wellness community in general, we need some reflection.

[00:28:05] And part of that too, is like brings up the conversation of like how expensive it's gotten to get certified. I mean, especially even in the yoga community, you know, those programs are usually only like a few months long, but it's thousands of dollars and that is incredibly inhibitive. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And it takes a long time to work that off.

[00:28:27] Like you don't make a lot of money in it. And so you get loaded with this debt that you can't pay off and it makes it harder to get into if you don't come from privilege. Right. And I see some parallels in the acupuncture profession too, because what ends up happening is that some practitioners, not all, definitely not all, but some practitioners of acupuncture do it more as a hobby because it's, it's hard to work off that debt, like you said, and to really [00:29:00] make a good living at it and so you either have to try to, you know, build some yoga empire where you are doing all these other things or charging a lot of money or you sort of teach here and there, but it's your side hustle. And I think that happens so much just in wellness in general, right?

[00:29:23] Because wellness can be expensive there's a limited number of customers or consumers, right? So that just creates scarcity for everyone. Yeah. It, it just, the whole model feels just steeped in white supremacy culture to me right now. And I think when we think of acupuncture being expensive, or we think about yoga being expensive and Ashley and I have had this conversation so many times.

[00:29:47] I, at one point, literally wanted to remove the word wellness from our company because what we do is so different and the space we landed in is that like, let's be the Trojan horse of wellness. Let's like kind of mess it up from the inside [00:30:00] and like shake things up from the inside, shake it up and get in there and not be what people expect but I think when a lot of people think about wellness, they think about Goop.

[00:30:08] They think about Gwyneth Paltrow and these like incredibly expensive serums that, that don't do anything. And like this like kind of pseudoscience that ends up being ultimately harmful. And then, you know, Gwyneth Paltrow herself has been like, I look this way because I drink green juice and I. And I love water.

[00:30:28] It's like, no girl, you look that way because you have a personal trainer and a private chef and millions of dollars, and you can afford all these treatments and all these expensive things. Like stop telling people that if they drink a green juice, they can look like you because that's not what wellness is about and that's not what works.

[00:30:44] Let me just put this disclaimer in there. You can not drink a green juice in substitute for the vaccine. I just wanted to put that out there. Yes. Thank you for including that. I think you're getting at something [00:31:00] that's so prevalent in the wellness space, for sure, but also in healthcare in general is to put all of the responsibility on the patient, consumer, customer, whatever.

[00:31:13] And that, if you don't look like Gwyneth Paltrow, then you are doing something wrong and you need to buy more Jade's vaginal eggs or whatever. Um, and we don't spend enough time talking about the real, real causes of disease, and what's really going on systemically to make people sick and keep them sick.

[00:31:40] Right. And do you know I think about, I mean, I think about just food, something as basic as food. Everyone knows that vegetables are good for you and that fast food is bad for you. So we talk about, Oh, well people need to make better choices but we don't talk about, well, what are the choices in front of a person?

[00:31:58] And if a person lives [00:32:00] in an area that doesn't have a grocery store and the only place they can get food is from the convenience store on the corner, well that doesn't give them a lot of options. Right. And we don't, we don't talk enough about that. Right. And at that point, if the, if the choice is not eating or eating fast food, then it's not bad for you. It's literally keeping you alive.

[00:32:20] Right, exactly. You know, it's like, there's so much black and white thinking in the wellness community, but everything exists in shades of gray. Yes. And everything exists in context. Yeah. Oh man. I was about to say, we're going to start a whole nother side of the podcast now. But we we have to look at these causes and there's research being done.

[00:32:46] I mean, we, we know that there's a huge gap in health care outcomes in this country. And we know that black and Brown people have worse outcomes than, than white people. We [00:33:00] know that LGBTQ people have worse health outcomes than hetero cisgender people. Like we know this. The research is out there. I mean, I, I jotted down some notes before this because it just like, it just keeps going on and on.

[00:33:18] I mean, so African-Americans have higher rates of heart disease, cancer, diabetes, kidney disease, stroke and maternal death than their white counterparts. There was a Robert Wood Johnson foundation study and it showed that every seven minutes a black person dies prematurely in this country. And every day experiences of racial discrimination lead to premature aging and death.

[00:33:40] It's just so obvious that racism is a cause of disease and we have to acknowledge that. And it's not on the individual. It's not that the individual is doing something wrong or not practicing enough wellness or not drinking enough green juice. Like this is a systemic [00:34:00] problem. Right, right. Right. The, the narrative of wellness is that if you are not, well, it is your fault.

[00:34:07] Right? What do we always say? The world always makes this thing that we're not well enough and it's just this continuous cycle. Um, because that sells more stuff. Yep. Yep. It's, it's infuriating really. Yeah and we, we talk about this all the time, obviously, but we've kind of come up with like five new pillars of wellness that we think are more accessible and actually are more helpful.

[00:34:34] And, and it's, it's less things like green juice and serums, and it's more like sleep and community. It's like these things that combat systemic issue, systemic racism, systemic stress and hustle culture. Like there are these things that are, that we have no control over as individuals that impact our health that we have to be able to acknowledge in order to [00:35:00] move forward from.

[00:35:03] You always be looking at me like you want me to add something and I'm like... She speaks for the both of us. Everyone. No. Well, it's, it's been shown that loneliness is as deadly as smoking. I mean, loneliness is a cause of disease. The UK appointed a minister of loneliness because it's such a huge problem. And so that gets to, you know, your pillar of community. I mean community is vital to wellness. That's all we hear now, right?

[00:35:34] Isolation, talk about feeling isolated. And that's why it's really important for us to just be able to, when we create this content online, you know, prerecorded, trying to make it interactive as possible so they feel like we're right there with them. And that is something that we both care so, so much about and last year just made it more clear of what we need to be doing to help our [00:36:00] community be well.

[00:36:01] Yeah, we've been sounding the alarm about this long before the pandemic. And so it's like, it's a little frustrating and heartbreaking to see it happening when we thought that it would happen and hoped that we can.

[00:36:14] And that's why we take the Trojan horse approach because we do need wellness, we just need it redefined. We need a new definition for the future of wellness. Yes, that we do. Well we could talk to you forever. I know, this has been so interesting. Forever and ever and ever. It has been interesting. I love the history portion of all that.

[00:36:41] I think me and Liz were like little kids, tell me more. That's what I've been learning about it. Yeah. Before we go, I just want to briefly talk through what it's like to walk into your space because I think for anyone that's experiencing anxiety, it is actually an incredibly calming, peaceful [00:37:00] experience. I think I've passed out every single time in those chairs. I fall asleep and I wake up really, really rested. And it's like, uh, you know, it's only like an hour. It's not like I'm taking a full night of sleep, but it is an incredibly restful period so will you just talk through what it looks like to walk into your space?

[00:37:16] Sure. It used to be that you could walk in and have a cup of tea. We don't have, we don't have tea right now. One day we will. But yeah, you walk in our waiting room is really big and open and I, I always hate the experience of walking into a doctor's office and there's like the sliding glass window and there's like a person, like on the other side, that's like, it's like, you're talking to someone who's in prison or something so ours is very open. You walk into the waiting room. It's very open. And then, um, in the treatment room, our treatment room looks like a big living room full of second hand recliners.

[00:37:52] Yeah. And you just, you just pick out a recliner, you get comfortable. There are other people in there with you, [00:38:00] which sounds weird, but everybody's in their own little world and the recliners are spaced out.

[00:38:05] You're not on top of each other, but nobody's paying attention to anybody else in the treatment room. So sometimes people feel a little strange about that. Like, Oh, there's going to be other people in the room with me. It's not an issue at all. Everybody's in their own world. You get comfortable. The acupuncturist comes up to you.

[00:38:23] We chat for a few minutes. What's going on? How's everything feeling? Is anything better? Is anything worse? Then the needles go in. That process only takes a few minutes and then the bulk of the time you're there for up to an hour, your in a recliner. zoning out. Some people sleep. Some people listen to a podcast, some people read, but you're, you're just there.

[00:38:44] That that time is yours. I like for people to try to be distraction free when they're there, but I'm also not going to dictate how someone's going to use their time. So at that time is yours and you can do with it what you like and a lot of people just [00:39:00] relax. And then after an hour we come take your needles out and you go about your way.

[00:39:04] People generally feel really relaxed afterwards. Um, if they're dealing with a pain condition, they might feel some immediate relief, not always right in the beginning stage of treatment. Um, some people feel really energized afterwards, but it, it feels like you've had a really nice refreshing nap. And I will say this. As someone from the BIPOC community, even entering into that space because I know for myself, when I thought about acupuncture, I thought this is a white person's thing.

[00:39:33] I think because you have created that community environment, you have again, opened up the doors for everyone to come in. So when I came, it felt very welcoming because I wasn't the only black person in the room, you know. It wasn't just me and another black person or another BIPOC, you know, in the room.

[00:39:54] You really have set it up in an area in our community where you could pull [00:40:00] in that diverse clientele so I have to tell you that that's great and I personally appreciate you for that, so thank you very much. I love hearing that because that has been very intentional. I never have wanted our clinic to just be a sea of white faces because this medicine is for everyone.

[00:40:19] Yeah. Well, I appreciate you for that. So thank you very, very much. Our next goal will be to get our partners in with us. Yes, absolutely. I've told Bernard and he needs it. I have to tell him about the non-threatening needles. I've already told them that it is not, but anyways. My friend, we appreciate you.

[00:40:42] Liz, I think that's it and that's all. Alright, peace out.

[00:40:51] Thank you for listening to Wellness Community Magic. This season is coming to a close soon while we work on some big projects, but you can keep up with us by [00:41:00] following us on Instagram at Triluna_wellness, or signing up for our newsletter at trilunawellness.com. You can also join our community on patreon at patreon.com/wellnesspodcast for early access to episodes behind the same content and additional wellness resources, including a PDF of our Downdog to Donuts workbook. Staying tuned for more updates and keep an eye out for us on Clubhouse as well.

Podcast TRILUNA 4/12/21 Podcast TRILUNA 4/12/21

Ep017 - The Messy In-Between (Can't Stop Thinking About Boobs) - Charlie Claire Burgess

In this cross-over episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James join one of our favorite podcasters, Charlie Claire Burgess (AKA The Word Witch) for a conversation about tarot, magic, and a world beyond binaries.

Thanks for listening to Wellness, Community, Magic, a podcast with a pro-donut, anti-racist, Glenda-the-good-witch agenda. In this episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James join one of our favorite podcasters, Charlie Claire Burgess (AKA The Word Witch) for a conversation about tarot, magic, and a world beyond binaries.

If you struggle with black + white thinking, this episode is for you.

Join us next week for one of our last episodes before we close out this season!

Links:

Instagram: @the.word.witch

Twitter: @WordWitchTarot

The Word Witch Podcast

Fifth Spirit Tarot Deck

Cheddar Sriracha Cornbread Donuts

Cheddar Jalapeño Green Onion Donuts

Full Transcript:

[00:00:00] After I started reading tarot again, is when I started to realize that I'm non-binary, you know. Like it was through learning tarot again and working with it that I was like, like just, just the gates opened and changed everything. Um, I don't think that you can like, do something like read tarot for yourself and not come closer to your truth. Man, there's like so many different things that you both just said that I wanted to respond to and now all I can think about is boobs. Yes, I did that to us. We can think about it.

[00:00:42] That was a voice of Charlie Claire Burgess, a queer and non-binary tarot reader, artist, writer, and witch. They are the creator of Fifth Spirit Tarot, a queer and inclusive deck for a world beyond binaries and the author of the book link Fifth Spirit Tarot guide. You may know them from their [00:01:00] podcast, The Word Witch, exploring tarot and magic through a queer and inclusive lens.

[00:01:05] Charlie believes in the power of tarot as a radical tool for self knowledge, healing and personal liberation. Hi everyone. We're your hosts. Ashley Brooke James and Elizabeth Moore, co-founders of TRILUNA. And this is the Wellness Community Magic podcast, a podcast with a pro donut, anti-racist, Glenda- the- good- witch agenda.

[00:01:27] We're here to take on diet culture by making self-care realistic, sustainable, and inclusive. So settle in, get cozy and join us on our journey to build community and redefine wellness. Let's get started.

[00:01:43] The icebreaker and the question that we must ask first is if you were a donut, what donut would you be and why? I love this question. And I, so here's the thing. I don't [00:02:00] actually like donuts that much because I was scandalous. Um, cause I'm not really a sweets person. I'm more of a savory person. And so I was like, I took this as a challenge and I would like Google savory donuts.

[00:02:14] I was like, they must exist. They must be out there somewhere. And so I found so many delicious sounding, savory donuts, and one of them that really stood out to me was cheddar jalapeno corn bread donut. I know. I was like, yeah. I love cheddar. I love jalapeno. I've loved corn bread. I'm originally born and raised in the South in Alabama.

[00:02:41] I was like, Yeah, that feels good. I'll I'll go with that. Yeah. It's, it's a little bit spicy, a little bit salty, which describes me. And then there's, uh, my partner and I, who loves donuts had a little bit of a back and forth about whether it was actually a donut. [00:03:00] I think it counts. He was like, I don't know.

[00:03:02] It's made of corn bread. Can it be a donut if it's made of corn bread? And I was like, it says it's a donut. Like, it doesn't say bagel. So we had this like donut versus bagle. Interesting. But then I also liked that about the donut, because it's like, it looks like a donut, but is it a donut? Is it expanding the idea of what a donut could be? We are all about redefining things over here so I love it.

[00:03:32] And I actually just so our listeners know, we know the answers before, and I just wanted you to talk through that because I found that to sound very, very good and I wanted it. And Liz is the creator of all things in the kitchen. So I was going to be like, Liz, can you, uh, whip that up in the kitchen? Yes, I can try. I will try.

[00:03:57] We, yeah, we get to see the answers beforehand. And I was so [00:04:00] thrilled, not only because it sounds delicious and all of my favorite things also, uh, but it wasn't a classic glazed, which is like no shade, like. No shade at all, but everybody says classic glazed so it's exciting to get a different response this time.

[00:04:17] I'll I'll admit I had a tip from Grace, uh, who was like, try to choose not glazed. Yeah, one of our listeners even texted us this this week and was like, Hey. So how come everyone is a glazed donut? And we were like, we have the same. We, you know, although like Liz said no shade, it's great. It's wonderful foundation donut.

[00:04:40] It's the classic. But we just wanted to actually have someone walk us through that savory sweet journey like you did and mission accomplished. Yeah. I'm happy. Well, I can, uh, it was definitely a recipe that I found, so I can, uh, try to find that again and email you the recipe so that you can. Please do, and let's put it in the [00:05:00] bio and then we can get some pictures of other people too.

[00:05:04] And you see the marketing team, they went crazy there. Did y'all see that. Did y'all see that? So Liz, want to start us off? Yeah. So since we're kind of co doing this, would you just do like a short two, three sentence intro who you are? All that kind of stuff. Yeah, sure. Um, my name's Charlie, Claire Burgess. My pronouns are they, them.

[00:05:25] I am a queer and non-binary tarot practitioner and teacher and deeck creator and writer. Um, yeah, I've uh, made a tarot deck called Fifth Spirit Taro. I have a podcast called The Word Witch podcast. And I think that that's probably most of the things I think that encapsulates it. Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:05:53] Oh yeah. I was like, am I, am I. Okay. So we're traveling. [00:06:00] We are a pro donut, non diet, anti-racist wellness company that specializes in mental health and social justice issues. We provide wellness, curriculum, events, and retreats to corporate clients. Yeah, our, we really found a hole in the market around inclusive, accessible wellness. And so we are here to fix that problem.

[00:06:27] And can I ask what donuts you both are? Oh, yes. I'm. I might have to amend mine now and be a little bit of a copycat, but generally my answer to this is something we actually interviewed my dad on the podcast recently and he is like a very. Earthy magical kind of man, he's, uh, a Moss expert and like a very unique human.

[00:06:52] Yes. And he said classic glazed and I was like, okay, dad, like, I hear you, but. Also, and [00:07:00] also maybe you are like a Sesame donut or like matcha or something earthy. It has like really earthy depth of flavor. That's not too sweet, but maybe has like a light glaze on the top. And I think I actually want to steal a little bit of that, like a matcha, earthy matcha donut, but also I have to have sprinkles because I'm like, very into rainbow colors and shiny things right now.

[00:07:23] And so I'm a matcha donut with lots of iridescent sprinkles. Oh yes. I love that. And that's you can change, right? Yeah. Yeah. People can change and evolve and become different donuts. I feel like a different donut than I did a few months ago.

[00:07:41] I am actually going to say that I am the purest from five daughters. So five daughters, if you're hearing this, I am the purist. Um, it is the way I like to describe that it is a fluffy donut that when you bite into it, it is [00:08:00] kind of tough. Right. But once you get closer to the center, it has this cream puff filling.

[00:08:06] So as it's like harder, like edgier outside, and then when you get into the inside, it's all mushy and just. Just a big cry baby. I would say that would be me. And I also liked the look of the donut. Like it reminds me y'all are going to be like, what where's she going with? This? Like Kris Jenner can wear all black and look magnificent at all times, and this donut just has this beautiful, just classic. It's not a classic donut because the glaze on it is a little bit more sprinkling. It's like a sugary classic look. And it, no matter if you dump strawberries on top or whatever on top, it's still just this beautiful classic look. Um, like Kris Jenner in all black. It's also a layer donut. It has like a hundred layers, [00:09:00] which I feel like applies to. Yeah. Yes. So that was a lot. Yeah. Sounds like a neat donut. That's why it took so long to talk about it. We've really thought about this question.

[00:09:14] Well, I am so excited to have you on our podcast because when I first found tarot it was an explosive moment of personal and self growth for me. I had never had a tool like that. I am not in particular, a religious person. And so I was kind of seeking a little bit of structure to my spiritual practice. I was looking for some parameters or some things to work inside of in the beginning.

[00:09:38] And I found tarot and I almost immediately found you. And so my tarot journey started a lot with you and the way that you talk about taro is very different from the average person and also your writing. I'm an English major that was like my past. And so I'm really drawn to writing and your writing is [00:10:00] absolutely fun.

[00:10:01] I'm always sending it to like my dad and my sister. Cause I'm like, God, you gotta read this place, but it is so beautiful. And I've been so grateful for your influence on my personal growth journey, even though you didn't know who I was. So I wondered if you would talk a little bit about your journey to tarot and why your perspective on it is a little different.

[00:10:20] Um, first of all, I'm blushing. Thank you. Um, um, also I was an English major, so I just wanted to respond to that and like go down there. Yeah. English major. And, um, also got my master's in creative writing. You all are in Nashville, correct? Yes. At Vanderbelt. I got my master's in creative writing, so I am like very much a writer.

[00:10:42] So just like speaking words to my soul right now. Uh, yeah, so my, my tarot journey, it started when I was in high school. That's when, like a lot of folks I picked up my first deck, of course I was a high schooler in Birmingham, Alabama, and this was [00:11:00] around like 2002. So there weren't a ton of options for like places to go, to get your tarot deck or to learn about tarot or to buy like witchy books or whatever.

[00:11:13] Um, and it also, wasn't something that like, I didn't know anybody else who was doing it actually, there's this myth that you can't buy your first decade and gifted it? Well, I didn't know that cause I had like no tarot knowledge of anything. And so I went to Barnes and Noble at the mall and bought my self my first tarot deck and I also, I just think that's a total gatekeeper myth that you can't buy your own deck.

[00:11:42] You have to be gifted it, but long story short, I tried to learn how to read it at the same time that I was like starting, trying to do like a, a little like Wickens spells in the basement of my parents' house, you know, throwing like spices from their spice rack around.

[00:12:00] [00:11:59] And since I didn't have any like, community. Cause like the internet wasn't what it is now. There wasn't really social media at all. And cause I had to hide it from my parents who were Christians. I eventually kind of got freaked out and left it. Like I actually took my tarot deck and my like wicked books and threw them into the dumpster behind the mall.

[00:12:26] Uh, because I was afraid of like, I don't know. I was just afraid of being caught by my parents, etcetera. Those are the same time as like, I was discovering that like, my sexuality is queer as well. And I was like, Hmm. I like, like I like girls. And like also, I don't really feel like a girl myself and all of these things.

[00:12:51] And then. At the same time as I was getting rid of my tarot deck also kind of committed myself to the [00:13:00] conventional path that I thought was the path of least resistance, where I was like, well, it seems really hard to be a gay person in the world in 2002 in Alabama. And I didn't have like really any role models for that in my life.

[00:13:17] Um, cause I was pretty sheltered. And so I was like, Hey, it's really easy to date guys. And for guys to like me, so I'm just going to do that. And I'm going to like try to be the person that's like that I thought would be accepted. Or like, uh, like loved or appreciated by people and by society. And so at the same time, as I kind of abandoned tarot and magic and stuff, I also abandoned like myself.

[00:13:43] And tried to like become someone I wasn't. And so for me, tarot, and like my queerness and my spirituality and just like my truth are all tied up together. Cause then when I found tarot again and my late twenties, it all, it all came back. Like it all happened at the [00:14:00] same time. Like I, after I started reading tarot again is when I started to realize that I'm non binary, you know, like it was through learning tarot again and working with it that I was like, like just, just the gates opened and changed everything.

[00:14:16] Um, I don't think that you can like do something like read tarot for yourself and not come closer to your truth, you know, to like who you truly are. Yeah, we, we always talk about tarot too, as like a tool of self discovery.

[00:14:33] We really believe that it's a way to like ask yourself deeper, better questions. When you say that it like crack that open for you, it helped you start on that journey. What did that look like? How did that feel or come about? Oh man. So this is a juicy story. Um, uh, a new friend gave me a tarot reading after we had gone to the Renaissance Fair together.

[00:14:58] And like I'm talking like brand new friend. This [00:15:00] was like the second time we ever hung out and during the course of that tarot reading, it was not actually my first interaction with tarot since I had left it, but was the first like meaningful one that I had. And like he put the cards on the table and was sort of guiding me through what they were saying.

[00:15:18] And I was feeling this huge resistance inside me because the cards were saying like, there's something blocking you. Like, there's something. Something needs to fall away. There's some sort of block that's keeping you from being who you really are or who you could be or something like that.

[00:15:34] And I could just feel myself throwing up all these walls because I knew what it was, but I didn't want to know what it was. And I think that's one of the things that tarot does, it confronts us with the things that we already know but are ignoring. And so for me, that thing was my marriage at the time.

[00:15:58] And by the end of that [00:16:00] reading, I was like bawling because I was like, I have to get a divorce, like. I like, I knew it when I was like driving home that night. I was like, there was such clarity there too. Like I was crying because of like the grief of it, but, but just the clarity of that decision and of knowing what I needed to do next for myself and for my life and for my happiness was just unmistakable.

[00:16:28] And so I got a divorce for many other reasons. It wasn't because like a tarot reading told me so. Right. But the process of, of having that reading and sort of sitting with myself for like the answers of like, what is that thing that's, that's holding me back. It like, tarot makes a space available I think for us to sort of interrogate those, those areas and those questions and sort of face them and come to terms with them.

[00:16:57] And it, it. It does it in a way, [00:17:00] like I think that the, having the medium of the cards themselves, like these cards with these images on it and words and titles are almost like a, like a medium, like a gateway to allow us to do that in a way that we can't otherwise through like, like rational conscious thinking.

[00:17:16] You know, like by taking it into the land of image and stuff like that, it sort of shifts the brain, I think. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's right. And we get a lot of fear around tarot when we talk about it. You know, we're, we're also in the deep South and there's a lot of fear around it and we always say, Terrell cannot tell you anything that you don't already know, but that won't mean that it isn't scary to look at.

[00:17:42] Yes. You know, it can be scary and it can be intimidating, but it's not, it's not making things happen to you. It's just exactly like you said, creating that space for those truths to be revealed to you if you're ready for them. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Right. And well said, well said. [00:18:00] Cause I think that that is really important to acknowledge and sometimes we'll try to like, I don't know, make some of the more difficult cards or experiences more like fluffy and like happy and relatable because of fear.

[00:18:16] Right. When what we really need to do is acknowledge that like, sometimes things suck, like sometimes things are painful and that's just a true, and if we were working with a deck of cards that didn't acknowledge that, then what use would it be? Right. Right. We need something that's able to reflect. The range of human experience which includes pain and grief and, and fear and anxiety, etcetera.

[00:18:48] That's how it serves us the best. I think is, is being able to be all these things. And with that I think comes the acknowledgement that the quote "bad cards" or [00:19:00] quote "scary cards" even while I just said all that are also not necessarily bad. Right? Like what does a difficult experience do but make you grow?

[00:19:14] Absolutely. That was beautifully said. I would love to know what led you to create your own first deck. Oh, to create Fifth Spirit? Yeah. Thank you. Um, well, so it happened by accident. Like I didn't intentionally go, I shall start a deck and this is what it shall be. Um, I had done a ritual on, on the Aquarius new moon in 2019.

[00:19:44] Um, cause I like felt this thing brewing or coming and, but I didn't know what it was. And so I did a ritual talk to my guides. I was like, what is the thing? I'm ready! And that evening just started. I picked up my, um, ancient [00:20:00] iPad and just started doodling on it with my finger, like a drawing app. Um, which was, I never did.

[00:20:06] It was very uncharacteristic of me to even touch that machine, which was only used for Netflix at that point. Um, and after a few doodles, I looked at it and realized like, Holy crap, that's an ACE of cups. Like I just drew an ACE of cups and I was like, is this the thing like. Am I creating a deck now? And it was so surprising because I didn't think of myself as an artist.

[00:20:31] So like, while I had a desire to create a deck, I didn't ever think I could actually do it. I just didn't think that was a possibility for me. I was like, maybe I'll collaborate with an artist or something one day. And well, I, this happened, I was like, I guess I'm doing it anyway. And so like along the course of making the deck, I learned how to do art, um, which was remarkable, but as I started making it, [00:21:00] I had to think about what I wanted it to be and sort of what I wanted it to contribute to tarot.

[00:21:08] Um, and in tarot for a very long time, for forever, there've been, uh, various problems, uh, such as most tarot decks, the vast majority, still today are composed of like all white people on the cards, all like "conventionally attractive", you know, in air quotes, people like thin bodies, etcetera.

[00:21:35] Um, and they're all very CIS heteronormative. You know, all CIS people, heterosexual couples, and they even use things like gender as metaphors for say, nurturing or softness or submission, uh, that big, you know, thing that traditional tarot decks align with [00:22:00] female representation. And then the men are strong and authority and logical etcetera.

[00:22:05] They use these things as metaphors in ways that just reinforce the harmful gender binary and, uh, stereotyping, etcetera. And so I was like, well, I want to, I want to contribute something, be one of the people that contribute something to try to evolve the tarot. I think that it can be a really helpful tool for facing those things actually for facing things like, um, misogyny, gender roles, gender stereotyping, etcetera, because like they're present in some of the archetypes.

[00:22:44] Right? Right. So through working with taro and evolving it. We're kind of like evolving the way that we think about these things to where we can be. Right. And so, yeah, so that's why I decided to do the humans that I [00:23:00] illustrate in the deck in the way that I did in an effort to be one person who was trying to move that needle a little bit.

[00:23:07] So how did you replace them? Can you give an example of what you replaced? Yeah, so, um, there's a lot of queer decks out there, first of all. And a lot of them do this really cool thing with the titles on the cards. So there's some of the cards that I'm talking about specifically are like the impress, the emperor also like King and queen.

[00:23:30] Cause these are very gendered titles, right. So a lot of decks we'll do a cool thing where they like, uh, they change the title to something that is non-gendered. So like, Uh, the emperor might become like the, the navigator or, you know, into something that's not, um, gendered, but instead of doing that, and also because I couldn't come up with any, any better titles than what some of the geniuses out there have already come up with, [00:24:00] I decided to sort of queer those titles by queering the imagery on the cards.

[00:24:06] So, cause I think that the problem isn't just with the names. The problem is with the way that we gender the archetypes themselves and like the ideas themselves. Like we can put a different name on the Empress, but still associate the Empress with women or with femininity and still associate that archetype with like, uh, caregiving and emotionality and stuff like that.

[00:24:37] And these things. Caregiving, emotionality, etcetera, these are the things that everybody has. It has nothing to do with like reproductive organs. Right. Right. And so on the empress, I kept the titles, empress,emperor, king, queen, but like on the empress on my deck, there's a person who is [00:25:00] like body language wise, like really embracing that like sort of receiving energy of the Empress but uh, has a, a flat chest, a flat male chest.

[00:25:10] The emperor has a beard and breasts. Um, and then on some of the court cards, I've just kind of like troubled or queered the imagery in order to be like men can be Queens or masculine presenting people can be Queens. Uh, women or fem presenting people can be Kings.

[00:25:31] None of this has anything to do with gender. Yeah. One of my favorite cards of yours that you posted on your Instagram recently is transition. And it's like a hand moving through these different phases. And it's like a normal looking hand on the end in the beginning, but in the middle, it's like all these rainbow colors.

[00:25:49] And as you know, I'm very drawn to the imagery of that, but will you talk through how you did that? I always, I've just listened to, I really listen to our podcast recently and then realized that I say, can you talk [00:26:00] about like a hundred times an episode? So will you explain, is that the same thing? How about I say it?

[00:26:07] Will you talk about, can you talk us through that please? Certainly. Uh, so that card is, uh, from a new deck that I'm working on. It's going to be an Oracle deck. It's based on the 52 or 54 card playing, playing card deck like we play solitaire and poker with and stuff. Um, and like, what are you curious about, like how I created the image or my thinking behind the image?

[00:26:34] Both. Yes to all. Um, so, uh, short answer for how I created it is, uh, I create my art digitally. Uh, so I illustrate it on an iPad with a stylist. So I like draw it all with my little pin, but it is digital. Which I have to remind myself sometimes is still art [00:27:00] because I find myself under cutting it. And, uh, I do it that way because I have no traditional art training.

[00:27:07] So, like, I literally don't know how to put paint on a canvas. Same. So while I've I've drawn, like ink sketches and stuff my whole life, like no clue how to no clue how to do like traditional art mediums. That image that you're talking about for transition. I like the, what most of the time happens is the images just sort of, I don't know.

[00:27:33] Come to me, like I just will have an image in my head and then sit down and try to recreate it. And for the transition card, um, Hmm. I haven't tried to like verbalize this before. So when we think about transition, uh, and I'm talking like transition as in any sort of time, when, when anybody is moving from sort of one place to another place. Figuratively [00:28:00] or literally, there's a change that happens.

[00:28:03] There's a journey. There's like an in-between place. Right. Um, and I'm also talking here about like transitioning as like a transgender person, you know, there's, there's, uh, there's this like messy in between middle where things are in flux when and where you're not quite in one place or in the other place.

[00:28:24] And we tend to skip that a lot or like, not skip it, but not want to think about it. It's like, we're always looking at the goal, like at the end point, the destination. Right. And just can't wait to get there when in fact, I think in those liminal in-between places, there's so much just rich opportunity for discovery and for self discovery, for learning, for becoming in new unexpected, surprising ways, you know, and it can be painful [00:29:00] certainly, but there's also just so much beauty there.

[00:29:02] Yeah. Yeah. And so that's what I was trying to illustrate with that image of their. It's sort of like a hand going through sort of what looks like, maybe like a glass box, but it's not glass, but it on the inside and the, in between it's all like rainbow colored. So that's what I was trying to illustrate.

[00:29:20] And that's actually where rainbow started coming into the deck. And so now there's, there's a lot of, uh, sort of rainbow theme in that deck. Yeah. I love that. It makes me think to our friend Sam Jump who's also an incredible writer, posted and this was a long time ago and it has stuck with me for so long, but she said it's important not to rush during the unfolding.

[00:29:42] And that has like stuck with me. Like it literally like makes me want to cry a little bit every time I think about it cause it's just such a beautifully worded sentiment about something that we so often skip or miss over, miss out on. Right. Yeah. And while we're talking about transition, I'm just [00:30:00] sitting here and I'm thinking about the younger you throwing your terrible books in the garbage, you know, and I, I listen to you now and it's so much magic.

[00:30:12] It's so much like this. I could just sit here. Like, that's why I've been quiet the whole, cause I've really been enjoying the conversation, but like, what would you tell your younger self about magic and tarot then?

[00:30:26] No, if you could go back. Thank you for that question cause it's, that's actually part of like, sort of the work I've started doing recently, which is sort of like inner child work or younger self-work which I've avoided for a very long time. Cause it was like one of the last frontiers. I was like, Oh, that's so scary.

[00:30:46] I can't touch that. But I've been thinking about that question. And I was like, first of all, I had told my younger self that I'm a little bad-ass because I was, I was like, you know, giving it the good fight, refused to [00:31:00] do cotillion. Just straight up refuse, even though both my brothers had to do it, but, uh, I would tell my younger self that no one knows anything.

[00:31:10] Like all the people who are trying to tell you what the right answer is or what the "truth" is. Everyone's just stabbing at meaning. Everybody's just trying to come up with answers and come up with meaning. Just like, just like you are just like I am, right. So much of what sort of took me away from my path was people basically making me feel like I was stupid or wrong for, for believing what I did or ever being interested in what I was interested in.

[00:31:43] And I would internalize that and sort of turn it on myself and started thinking like, you know, I went full on like atheist for many, many years after that. And like, not the cool kind of atheist, but like the kind of atheist that [00:32:00] calls people sheeple. You know, and just is like mean and it looks down on people who believe in anything, because I had just internalized that messaging so much.

[00:32:10] Right. There's so much space for, for belief and for magic and like, who cares? If you're going to believe in something, it might as well be something that is fun and like weird and magical and something that helps you and that makes you more compassionate towards other people and so much fighting and strife in the world comes from people trying to make other people believe that they're right.

[00:32:46] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm really glad that Ashley brought that example up specifically because we, Ashley and I have different faith backgrounds. We experienced the world with different religions and, and that is morphing and changing for [00:33:00] both and all of us all the time, I think.

[00:33:02] But we've had. People are genuinely surprised by that, that we can share this space with different faith backgrounds, especially when it comes to tarot. Yeah. But I think that all starts. I know for me personally, being a Christian, I think yoga helped me be in the space. You know, I meet so many people with different religious backgrounds and they are some of my best friends, you know, and then like, I love the way you put it.

[00:33:29] If you're going to believe in something, why not let it be something fun and I've redefined what looking like a Christian looks like to me, you know, I've never been this close to God in my life. And that's through the use of using my tarot and Oracle cards because I'm able to pull back that fear and bring the truth to him and seek the things that I need that I request.

[00:33:51] Um, and so. I said him I'm even working on that as well. Like that's what I've been taught. And so [00:34:00] just understanding that as well. And I think, like you said, so many people just want to be right about something. And if we give people just the freedom to find their own way, like just believe it's their way and it's going to be the best way for them.

[00:34:16] Yeah. And that's why we started this company from a wellness perspective. We, we kept getting all this like prescriptive advice that made no sense for our lives whatsoever, and we were so tired of it. We didn't see representation of inclusive wellness. We didn't see a place where we could get started and not feel like a boob, you know, like it just like, feel like.

[00:34:45] Okay, we'll go with that. I don't know why that's what came to mind. That's been what I'm actually looking at. I think it's the boobs on the painting right now? Um, yeah, I mean, it was, there was no space that felt [00:35:00] inclusive and welcoming if I didn't drink the Kool-Aid or, or engage in the dogmatic vision of it.

[00:35:06] And we wanted to create a wellness that was really deeply rooted and grounded and bio-individuality and the acknowledgement that everyone is unique and need something unique and is allowed to define that for themselves. Yeah, and we are better if we put ourselves in situations where we can learn more about other people's beliefs and what, you know, I forgot the second word I was going to use.

[00:35:32] I'm still thinking about boobs to be honest. Yeah. I'm like stuck on it now.

[00:35:39] Now I'm thinking about boobs. Now everybody is.

[00:35:50] I love it. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's just, it's the same in, in religion, in wellness, in food, all of this for us, it's like, it must [00:36:00] necessarily involve discussion of individuality at every level. I agree. And that's what we tell people when we talk about tarot too. You know, it's like, this is your journey and you can.

[00:36:11] No one can tell you how to read the cards. The only way to do tarot wrong in my opinion, is to read for someone else and tell them that this is the truth. Any other thing in tarot is up to you to decide how that resonates with you and in your life. Yeah. And it's up to you to build that relationship with whatever, you know, you feel comfortable with.

[00:36:33] I tell a lot of people who aren't ready for that hard truth, because that's what it is. Like you said in the beginning, looking at the hard truth and being afraid of that, you know, I do believe Oracle cards give you that little grace into the space, but still we got to get to a point where we can be real with ourselves because we just show up as better individuals and I think tarot, Oracle cards are a wonderful resource for that.

[00:36:59] Yeah. [00:37:00] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Agreed. And man, there's like so many different things that you both just said that I wanted to respond to and now all I can think about is boobs. Yes, I did that to us. All we can think about is boobs.

[00:37:18] Y'all know this what's going to be on the audio part. All I can think about is boobs.

[00:37:27] Totally okay with that, Grace. I would, I would love know, actually so I mean, in the name of your podcast is it has the word magic in it. And I think that you both answered this question a little bit already, but I would love to know for each of you, what magic means to you? And if you have a magical practice, like what that looks like.

[00:37:54] Yes. That's a great question. Go for it, Liz. Okay. So I've been thinking about this a lot [00:38:00] lately and my definition of this changes all the time, but right now for me, it really is exactly what we talked about earlier. The alchemical process of transformation that happens in the in-between. You know, it's like when you're building muscle or whatever, it's like, it's actually these like tiny little tears that happen.

[00:38:18] And then your muscle grows larger as a result of that. And that to me feels like magic. Like that's like a very visceral example of what magic is in my life. Like the little tears and the struggles and the getting it wrong and then, and then doing the work and figuring it out and doing better the next time and growing and expanding my consciousness and making myself and the space around me more aware and more inclusive and more in the service of more individuality, more growth, more peace, whatever that is. That's become my definition of magic for right now.

[00:38:56] I'm going to roll with that too. No, I'm just kidding. Say like [00:39:00] she keeps talking and that she keeps hitting on. So I'm going to, I actually, I agree with a lot of that is that in-between phase because as a company and as business partners, we're growing and we're learning each other.

[00:39:11] And one of the biggest, the hardest parts of our job is we offer diversity and inclusion courses, you know, as a black woman and a white woman. And there's always things that we're growing through. It's always incidents, always conversations that allow us to grow and to think about where we started and where we are.

[00:39:32] It's pretty magical. And we have been able to use our journey and reflect that and share our story to help other people grow in their magic. I also feel magic is becoming, like you said, becoming what it is that you set your intentions too. I'm a firm believer of writing things down, speaking things into the universe and becoming what I said I'm going to become. The practice of that is [00:40:00] for me personally, is being grounded, staying connected.

[00:40:03] And I do that through the practice of yoga. I started yoga over 10 years ago. I became certified over six years ago, and it is just, it just allows me to go into this place of just peace. Even when I'm teaching. I, I just can't even remember what happens within the hour. And that's just allowing myself that sense of clarity.

[00:40:26] We talked about it. Oracle cards have played a big part of my life and I'll thank Liz to that because it wasn't a practice of mine until we started becoming business partners, but it was something that she allowed space for me to grow my own relationship with. And I found a relationship with it and I'm a person of masking, putting it to the back.

[00:40:48] And this practice has really allowed me to shine light on my mental health and helping me work my way out of it. Yeah, we use lots of tools. We refer to [00:41:00] them as tools like our crystals and our tarot and our journaling and all that kind of stuff. And we, I kind of am influx with them right now. Like I have one deck that I'm using and I just bought your book that like ,guidebook, I'm very excited about, but I'm very, very, very particular about what decks I'll use right now because I feel very drawn to specific things.

[00:41:22] Like the deck that I'm using right now is all women. It's like a, a women's deck, uh, and it talks about their history and their, so it is like a gender deck, but it is, I found that removing masculine images was what I needed in the moment. And it talks about their achievements and their accomplishments and their grace and their fortitude.

[00:41:46] And I found myself very drawn to that kind of magic right now. So I'm using that one and I'm using it sparingly. So I used to do like a daily poll and I'm sure I'll come back into that space at some point. But right now I am [00:42:00] doing like once a week maybe. And I'm kind of letting that guide my week and let it really sink in and settle and figure out.

[00:42:07] And if I don't pull the judgment card almost every time, for it's been almost a year and a half. Cause it was, it was middle of last year. It has come up for me so many times. And so I I'm trying not to like, just keep pushing through that and just keep pulling more cards and keep, you know, so my, my practice right now really is looking at like, because that card in a lot of decks is about duality, right?

[00:42:36] It's about the like black and white, where I feel more like what it's calling me to do right now is look at shades of gray. It's like asking me to look at how I'm using black and white thinking or binary thinking when that isn't what's called for that isn't what's needed or that isn't, what's actually helpful to me in the moment.

[00:42:57] So I'm trying to sit with that tool right now and figure [00:43:00] that out. Yeah. One thing that I wanted to, to respond to Elizabeth, that you were talking about with your deck, that you're using, that has all women in it. Um, there's an idea when we talk about non-binary anything that all gender is bad and that's not true.

[00:43:21] Like that's, so that's just something that I want to like state for the listeners, because that's a resistance that a lot of people have when just they learn about non binary people. They're just like, Oh, does that mean that all gender is bad? Does that mean that my gender is bad or false? Like, no, not at all.

[00:43:37] Gender is wonderful. Gender is beautiful. My, my partner is a transgender man. So he identifies as a man. He is a man. And I am non binary. So I'm like, I don't get gender. I don't get binary gender, but we can both have genders in our own different ways and [00:44:00] understand gender in different ways. And there's absolutely no problem with that.

[00:44:03] Like both those things can exist, which is also non-binary thinking, right? Like that's, that's what that is. So I want to just respond to that for the listeners. It is beautiful to like use a deck that has all images of women and femmes in it, or I don't know. I think there's some, well, yes, there are decks with all men in them which is most tarot decks.

[00:44:30] Using a thing that makes you feel good about yourself and or gender or, or whatever it is. That's a good thing, right? Like there's room for that. Yeah. And also, uh, Ashley, it was something that you were saying. So one of the definitions or way that ways that we can think about magic is just like anything that causes a change.

[00:44:53] It's like applying your will to, into the world to cause a change in the world. Right. [00:45:00] And so when you were talking about what y'all offer with like all of your offer offerings, but especially with like, uh, diversity and inclusivity and anti-racism work and trainings. Like, that's also magic. Like you are applying your, your will and your perspective and, and your energy into the world in order to create a change.

[00:45:26] Right? Yeah. And that's, that's fucking magic. Beautifully said. Thank you. I appreciate that. Do you feel like you're creating magic when you do that? I do. Yeah, I do, even though it's hard, you know, but it, it, it takes someone like yourself to tell us that the, so we remember what we are doing is magic because we know it, but just like anything, it gets buried back when you're in the work and it's hard to see sometimes.

[00:45:58] So we really appreciate you for [00:46:00] that. Yeah. Well magic, there's a sacrifice or like there's energy. You have to put energy into magic. Right? You can't get something out of nothing. So the work and the difficulty and all that, like it's. That's part of it.

[00:46:15] Yeah. That's part of it. Yeah. It's that middle part you're speaking on earlier, just I'm going to get right to the finish line, but it's working through that middle part that is so needed and so necessary. Yes. Yeah. It's the middle of the donut, the middle of that, that going through that.

[00:46:38] Y'all trying to, I will not cry on this one. I've cried on a lot of these podcasts, but you are not breaking this hard shell today. Well, we are getting the message that we needed to, to wrap. But before we do that, you have this one piece of writing from your Instagram that I was hoping that I could read.

[00:46:56] And then if you want it, if you wanted to read it in your voice, you could as well. [00:47:00] And then just have you talk about what that meant to you and why you wrote it. Okay, cool. Okay. Go, shoot, go ahead. This is my thing, right? This is one of the ones that I sent to my dad and my sister, and it says "though this night is long and full of ghosts. I am alive. I am a living, breathing flame. I am a spark of the sun. I am the Herald of my own dawning and look, my light breaks."

[00:47:28] I just think that is so powerful. And I read that when I was doing a lot of my own, let's call it shadow work and looking at a lot of my own ghosts and it just spoke to me on, on such a deep, personal level.

[00:47:41] And I think it's so beautifully constructed. Thank you. Um, so that was an amazing, just experience to, to hear you read that back to me, just. Just, I wanted to say that first of all, and also this weird thing happens sometimes where like, I'll [00:48:00] write something and then not forget that I wrote it, but when I hear it read back to me I'm like, wait, I wrote that? It happened with a friend recently who was reading part of the, like the hermit injury from my guidebook on Instagram.

[00:48:16] And I was listening to it. Oh, that's really good. Like, yeah, this person knows what I was like, Oh shit that's me. But I can't actually remember what post it was that I put that on. But those words and those lines also come out of my own really sort of grief work as we all have of, I've had a lot of grief this year and that grief is of course related to, to lose losing people, to COVID, to various other losses, to just hardship and stress and things like that.

[00:48:53] But also grieving. Just, I feel like over the past several years [00:49:00] as I've been in a better place in my life. I've also been sort of grieving things that I couldn't before when I was like in the shit when I was like, just trying to survive. Right. When we're just surviving, there's not really place to grieve or time to, and so we can put it off and put it off. And so like this like shedding or transformation, or I have felt at times that I'm just like burping grief or something, just like, Hmm.

[00:49:31] Just like letting it out. And one thing that I also have felt during all that is just the intensity of my own spirit. Like that wants to survive. That is surviving. That is, is also pure and good and whole like in there somewhere like existing, alongside all of this stuff. And as sort [00:50:00] of the like veils of, of grief and of shame and of shadow work and all that are coming down like that, that light just shows more and more.

[00:50:11] Right. And it's been in there all along, but it's getting brighter and brighter. I don't know. No, that was beautifully said. I mean, if you put that on a piece of art, I will buy it on anything. I'm just putting that into the universe and seeing what comes out of it. I just think that you and Liz should probably do an audio book together because just hearing both of you talk back and forth, your voices, I'm a fan.

[00:50:37] Well, Charlie, I have to let you know that I am just as in love with you as Liz. I'm glad that we have this opportunity and Grace, I mean, cause they were, I mean, I kind of felt unprepared because they were like, this is going to be great. I'm super excited for Thursday. Like I've been up all morning, like reading through everything and making sure that I [00:51:00] didn't miss the Mark.

[00:51:01] Obviously Liz would send me your things from Instagram all the time and it was just. I believe in the work that you're doing, and I appreciate you. And I really appreciate you just being here with us and taking the time to walk us through your journey and share your story with us. It feels really good.

[00:51:21] And it feels just for someone who has been doing this, you know, for a while, even when. You know, it wasn't the thing. And for someone like myself who is new, it's just, it's just reassuring that the magic and the things that I do to bring me back to a place of grounding. I mean, it just feels really good to hear you talk through that.

[00:51:45] And I'm just really grateful. So thank you. Thank you so much, Ashley and Elizabeth. Um, I was so happy to have this invitation and to share this conversation with you both, because like, if you think I haven't learned [00:52:00] some things and like that I'm not leaving this with stuff to like chew on and digest and just integrate like, Oh my gosh, this conversation is incredible.

[00:52:12] And I'm so glad to have discovered both of you and what you do and, and your business and your podcasts. I've been listening to past episodes of your podcast of this podcast. This is just incredible. Thank you both so incredibly much. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. And you will be the first person that we call when we decided to do our first deck, you know you will be.

[00:52:39] So we thank you again. Grace, do you want to say anything? No, I'm good. She's down here.

[00:52:49] Well, thank you so much. And I hope there's an in-person donut and coffee meeting in our, our future when the world gets, gosh, you better believe it. Yeah. I actually want [00:53:00] that cornbread down night. I will find that recipe. I'm going to send you that link. Well, guys, I think that's it. And that's all. Peace out.

[00:53:12] Thank you for listening to Wellness Community Magic. This season is coming to a close soon while we work on some big projects, but you can keep up with us by following us on Instagram @triluna_wellness, or signing up for our newsletter at TRILUNAwellness.com. You can also join our community on patreon @patreon.com/wellnesspodcast for early access to episodes, behind the scenes content and additional wellness resources, including a PDF of our Downdogs to Donuts workbook. Stay tuned for more updates and keep an eye out for us on clubhouse as well.

Podcast TRILUNA 4/6/21 Podcast TRILUNA 4/6/21

Minisode - Why is Everyone a Glazed Donut? - Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James

In this episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James are answering your burning question: why is everyone a glazed donut? Here's our official analysis, complete with a compilation of some our glazed donut guests explaining their answers. This episode features Courtenay Rogers, Lisa Stelly, Kenya Raymer, Kia Jarmon, and Courtney Hale.

If you identify as a glazed donut, this one's for you.

Join us next week for a super exciting cross-over episode with one of our favorite podcasters. It's going to be a good one.

Thanks for listening to Wellness, Community, Magic, a podcast with a pro-donut, anti-racist, Glenda-the-good-witch agenda. In this episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James are answering your burning question: why is everyone a glazed donut? Here's our official analysis, complete with a compilation of some our glazed donut guests explaining their answers. This episode features Courtenay Rogers, Lisa Stelly, Kenya Raymer, Kia Jarmon, and Courtney Hale.

If you identify as a glazed donut, this one's for you.

Join us next week for a super exciting cross-over episode with one of our favorite podcasters. It's going to be a good one.

Links:

Embrace Yoga's Roots: Courageous Ways to Deepen Your Yoga Practice by Susanna Barkataki

Podcast TRILUNA 3/30/21 Podcast TRILUNA 3/30/21

Ep016 - Decolonizing Yoga From the Inside Out - Melissa Shah

Thanks for listening to Wellness, Community, Magic, a podcast with a pro-donut, anti-racist, Glenda-the-good-witch agenda. In this episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James join Melissa Shah for a candid conversation about cultural appropriation and yoga. They talk about the power of representation and decolonizing yoga.

If you're a white yoga teacher or practitioner, you need to listen to this one.

Thanks for listening to Wellness, Community, Magic, a podcast with a pro-donut, anti-racist, Glenda-the-good-witch agenda. In this episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James join Melissa Shah for a candid conversation about cultural appropriation and yoga. They talk about the power of representation and decolonizing yoga.

If you're a white yoga teacher or practitioner, you need to listen to this one.

Join us next week for a minisode check-in with our hosts.

Links:

Yoga is Dead Podcast

Full Transcript:

[00:00:00] It's like, yeah, like you can't change like the whole, you know, mainstream wellness industry, but you can make that choice to be like, okay, I'm going to step back and see what is my role here? And like, what work do I need to do as an individual because I can't control like what every single person chooses to do?

[00:00:20] That was the voice of Melissa Shah, an ...american yoga therapist who is in love with adapting yoga to individuals and studying ayurveda. She believes that yoga doesn't need to be stripped of its culture and history in order for it to be palatable and beneficial to others. She is deeply interested in the intersection of yoga and social justice and works to make feeling well accessible to all, but especially those who are often left out of the wellness conversation. Today, we are talking about the power of representation and decolonizing yoga.

[00:00:57] Hi everyone. We're your hosts, Ashley [00:01:00] Brooke James and Elizabeth Moore, co founders of TRILUNA and this is the Wellness Community Magic podcast, a podcast with a pro- donut, anti-racist, Glenda- the- good- witch agenda. We're here to take on diet culture by making self-care realistic, sustainable, and inclusive. So settle in, get cozy and join us on our journey to build community and redefine wellness. Let's get started.

[00:01:28] My lovely friend. We like to ask everyone when we start off, if you were a donut, which donut would you be and why? Um, I'm just going to say that I had the hardest time with this question out of all the questions you sent over. I was telling my husband, I was like, what donut would I be? And he's like, I don't know, you're gluten free. Like you don't eat donuts. And I was like, but if I could, I totally would. And that actually, I filled out everything else and then I was like so interested that that was the one that [00:02:00] I spend the most time on. Um, if I was a donut, I think I would be something with like chai spices, definitely that, because I love anything that is like overly spiced.

[00:02:14] Um, so I would have lots of chai spices and sea salt. Those would be like my TCS. Um, the reason why is because I've just been like really, really homesick. I haven't seen my parents in like almost 15 months, um, or my sister and, um, those smells like always remind me, always remind me of home. So I think, I think that's probably the main need I'm trying to meet right now.

[00:02:40] That's a great answer. That's the perfect answer to that question I think. That is, and I just kinda want to jump right in. Okay. The first time. I remember the first time that I saw you and didn't know you were a teacher at the moment. I don't remember where it was. Maybe it was a festival. Maybe it was [00:03:00] international yoga day, but it was a Brown girl doing yoga.

[00:03:03] And I was like, who is she? I want to find out who she is. I want to take her classes because at that time I had only taken Jo Jo's classes, which is, Jo Jo is a local teacher here in Nashville, and I was in search of other black and Brown teachers. And so I found you and finding you a found liberation.

[00:03:29] And I remember, I told Liz, I used to come to your Monday classes Monday or Tuesday classes. I can't remember which one it was. And I just really enjoyed your style of teaching. It reminded me of comfort. I love the way you had us get into our bodies and I just felt lighter every time I left one of your classes.

[00:03:53] And so Elizabeth and I know Melissa through the yoga community and [00:04:00] Melissa, I think it would just be great to just start off by like telling us your yoga story, your yoga journey and where you are now. Thank you. Um, I so miss, like seeing you in person. Like I actually, sometimes I'm like, what does that feel like?

[00:04:19] Um, I really appreciate that. Um, so a little bit about me. I started, I'm not really sure what age I really started practicing, but I guess we'll start with the age that, like, I was conscious that I was like doing yoga and my sister and I started practicing together probably when I was around like 11 or 12 years old.

[00:04:37] She's just 18 months older than me so we're grouped in together a lot into a lot of activities. And, uh, I had really severe asthma when I was younger. I got diagnosed at two years old. Like looking back on it now as an adult, it's like, Oh my God, I would never want any parent to have to go through that.

[00:04:52] And, um, I was diagnosed with asthma and I just had had it like all throughout my childhood, um, which for those who have had [00:05:00] asthma when they were kids, they can totally relate to this, but when you have asthma, you also end up getting a lot of like sinus colds and like chronic congestion, um, inflammation, like all that kind of stuff.

[00:05:09] And so that was just like a part of the norm for me when I was younger and like having to take like, asthma medication or having to kind of change the activities I was doing or how I was doing them because they would potentially like potentially have an asthma attack, um, in the middle of it. And that was just sort of my experience.

[00:05:25] I was kind of just used to that. My mom's side of the family, especially like my mom, my grandmother, and my grandfather and my mom's side were always very, very much into like yoga and ayurveda that, um, both of my parents, their ancestors are practitioners of the Jain religion and Jainism in its own right is basically a science.

[00:05:45] Um, and one of the central points to it is, um, practicing a himsa on there's a lot of like yoga, science and Jainism too. And so it's kind of just all like, like. Everything was just sort of like interwoven into and both of my families, but my mom's side of the family was definitely [00:06:00] like, um, more devout practitioners and kept a lot of these other elements, like ayurveda and holistic living as just like a part of life.

[00:06:08] And so my mom has always had that as a part of like who she was, but I didn't really get to see it until I was like sick. But at one point my mom was like, okay, you know what? Like, She had all the remedies and things like that. And she's like, what you really need to do is like a regular yoga practice.

[00:06:21] And I know that you're not going to listen to me because I'm your mom. And so I'm just going to take you to like a friend where they can teach you. And so my sister and I would go like several days a week after school to a family friend's house. And he taught out of his house, like a hatha, a hotha yoga class for adults. And we were just like kids that showed up and there was no like kids yoga, there were no games. It wasn't like, how do we make this really fun for you? It was like, you're just going to do this class and develop this discipline, like everybody else. And that's actually, that was my first like real, like I knew I was practicing yoga.

[00:06:55] That was like my first real experience. It was just very much like this really disciplined approach to [00:07:00] it. And yeah, my mom really started having me do that and my sister doing that mostly because of my asthma. And then also like whatever my sister did, I did and like vice versa. So we just, it was, there was, there was a strong sense of like moral support my family, like all the time, which was really nice.

[00:07:15] And then I just practiced, you know, all throughout like middle school, high school, whatever. And, you know, just like any other teenager, you don't know what you have until you're older. Right? Like you you're doing this thing, but at that time, like yoga wasn't cool. It wasn't trendy. People didn't wear leggings.

[00:07:29] Like that wasn't a thing in high school. I remember when people, like, I went to an art, a performing arts high school. And so I studied voice, but we had dancers and they all wore like tights and like leotards and everything. And I remember, I used to be like, Oh my God, they're so confident to be like walking around in like tights and like leggings all the time.

[00:07:47] I can't even imagine. You know? And now that's like, now it's just like I try to wear jeans so I like have a day of the week where I don't wear leggings. But, you know, you just like take these things for granted when you're younger because they're from your [00:08:00] culture, they're just like a part of your like regular life. And you don't really know. Or I didn't really know. Like I knew how it made me feel an unmade, my asthma better, but it really understand the full, like value of power of it until I met my teacher after practicing for a couple of years when I was 12 or 13. And I met my teacher that I had my mom and I, and my sister both like studied with for a really long time.

[00:08:19] And until he kind of like took me under his wing and was like, you're specifically going to learn these yoga creas and these brand new practices, like for your asthma, like, this is what you're going to do every single day when you're home. And we would go up to New Hampshire where my teacher and his wife lived and we would go there for like weekends and just do like an intensive all weekend, like stay at the house, just like how it was like kind of traditionally done all the time.

[00:08:41] But I didn't know, again, like, I didn't know any different, like I had never stepped into a yoga studio. I had never done a class of anybody else. So this was, yeah, just like my reality. And it was really cool. Um, and then in college, you know, I had my college experience where I definitely neglected my practice and again, didn't really know what I had, but in college [00:09:00] is when my teacher was like, do you want to start studying to be a teacher?

[00:09:02] And I was like, ah, sure. Like, why not? So me and my mom both started training under him and doing more like intensive study. And the nice thing about in these like traditional settings where you study with one teacher is like, you can stretch out your training for like forever if you want. And so for like four or five years, I studied with him.

[00:09:21] And then when I finished grad school is when I like did my like thesis for, you have to do a thesis for the, in this particular like lineage in school. And so I did my thesis and I did my exams and I got my certification and that's kind of like how I started teaching. I actually started teaching kids first, uh, when I was about like 20 or 21.

[00:09:40] And then after I got like my full certification, that's when I started to think about like, do I have the confidence to actually like teach adults? Like what does that look like? And it wasn't until I was in my mid twenties that I actually started going to yoga studios. Um, and I was in grad school in New York and I was totally broke.

[00:09:57] And so that was like the peak of like Groupon and living social at [00:10:00] that time. And so I was like, I'm just going to get Groupons and like fuck around to yoga studios and just take yoga classes because my cousin kindly let me live on her couch for most of grad school. Um, and which means that there wasn't a lot of like extra space for me to like be disciplined enough to practice.

[00:10:16] And so to my experience, going to yoga studios, and it was like this whole other world, because like words for poses like languaging, um, how it was marketed were just things I had never seen before. It was almost like, it's almost like it was like a completely different culture. I, in the lineage I had learned when I was younger, we didn't use props because you know, I like, props really came from like studying with like Christian Macharia and Iagar specifically, and this was a completely different lineage. I never like seen a yoga block or a yoga strap. And so they were like here, use this. I'm like, what is this? And I would just put it up. Like, I don't need that.

[00:10:51] Like, what is that? So it was just interesting, like how I started to see like, Oh, this is like what mainstream yoga is in a way. This is, this is like where everybody is when [00:11:00] everyone's like practicing. And that kind of led me onto a path of not being able to trust like what I learned when I was younger or like what I learned from my culture and being like, Oh, if I actually want to teach like a studio class was like, you know, that you were really teaching if you're teaching in a studio class or whatever.

[00:11:15] And I felt like, Oh, in order to do that I have to like learn how to teach in a different way otherwise like no one is going to be able to understand my teaching. Um, no one is gonna like respect it or anything like that. So that kind of led to this path of like taking trainings led by dominant culture.

[00:11:31] And just having like, you know, things from your own culture, just like repackaged and given back to you. But I wasn't that aware. It like made me uncomfortable, but I wasn't like fully aware of that at the time. I was just like, Oh, this is what I need in order to like be accepted. And so I'm just going to do it and, you know, find my own like way of teaching within that.

[00:11:48] And it wasn't until like five or six years later when I was living in Nashville that I met one of my teachers that I still study with now. And he teaches in the Viniyoga tradition, which is primarily [00:12:00] what I teach at now. And he teaches the viniyoga tradition and he like did not hold back on like using Sanskrit and be like, this is how it was, this is how he studied with Mistajar and he's like, this is how I learned it. I'm just passing it down to you.

[00:12:15] And it's almost like it wasn't like cool and trendy. And that like really attracted me to that because I'm like, Oh, There actually is a way, and there are people who are like craving something that, um, I don't want to say like more authentic, because like, what does authentic mean?

[00:12:31] But there are people who are looking to really understand these like deeper aspects of yoga that aren't really represented a lot of time in mainstream yoga culture. And he was like, that does exist and am I willing to like, basically let go of not being everyone's teacher? Even though, like I never was.

[00:12:46] Right. But am I willing to like, let go of that idea. And if I can let go of that, I can actually embrace like the path I'm like really supposed to be on. And whoever comes to that, like will come. So anyway, yeah. I basically have been like studying since [00:13:00] college and it's only like in the last like three or four years that I feel a lot more established and like the coming like full circle in a way.

[00:13:07] We appreciate you walking us through that journey because my next question was, and you kind of touched on it. I mean, what does it make you feel like now when you walk into a studio and you see how yoga is being represented? And we can reference, you know, the podcast that shook everyone and made people take a different look into their practices, which was "Yoga is dead."

[00:13:32] Yeah. The "Yoga is Dead" podcast. It, it woke up, a lot of us. Well, it woke, it woke up those who were willing to be awoken. Yes. Yeah. However we say that. Yes. But, um, so how do you feel like listening to that podcast? Knowing, being here in Nashville is only a handful of us black and Brown teachers. [00:14:00] And I've been wanting to ask you this. Hmm, but yeah. Tell me your thoughts. Like how did that podcast hit you and like how you feel right now?

[00:14:10] Yeah, it's a great question. Tejal and Jesal are awesome. I admire them so much and I really look up to them and, you know, especially when I'm like really digging in and just like reframing, like how I'm doing things. Um, what I always tell Tejal is like the podcast you both created.

[00:14:33] I'm like, it, it brought something out there that for a lot of us, like Brown folks, I'm like, we, it's like I always knew it. You know, when they were talking on a podcast, I was like, Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Now I was telling Tejal all the time. Like, but it's the language that, for me, it like, for my experience, it's the language that was like that missing, that missing piece.

[00:14:54] Like all these things you would feel like walking into these spaces, being asked to do things [00:15:00] like you're not totally comfortable with, having to, you know, cross that line between like meetings. You're like passing that or crossing that line of like meeting someone where they are and actually just like over accommodating in an effort to like make them like super comfortable. All of those things where like, Oh, yeah. Like that's been my experience for like so long.

[00:15:19] Um, but now I have like language and like a foundation on how to have those conversations with myself and then have those conversations with other people. And I feel like that's the, aside from all the topics they brought up, which is so great, that's been like the biggest thing for me.

[00:15:36] And it's so interesting when you're bringing up, like how it shook so many people, right? Or like people who are like willing to be shooken or shaken. It really brought up a lot even here in the yoga community in Nashville. And I think that was so interesting to see because you start to see a lot of the disparity of like black and Brown teachers.

[00:15:57] You know, a lot of us are like, Yup. [00:16:00] And then, you know, there are a lot of other teachers and practitioners that were like, mmmm I'm not sure, you know? And not to say, just because you hear something revolutionary that you're just supposed to, you're just supposed to accept it and like, not question it or anything like questioning is great, but it was more of all the language we have now that with this like resurgence of the interest in anti-racism and like the urgency of that.

[00:16:22] Like, there's so much language out there now that we can use to like explain those feelings of, you know, you hear these things and you just feel validated and you feel so seen, and then you have others with a lot more privilege in the wellness industry, not everyone, but you know, definitely people who are like, what if we looked at it from this perspective?

[00:16:38] And like, what about like the white teachers? And like, what about this? And like, what about that? And it's neither like good or bad to me. It's just like, okay. But is that actually like, what this conversation is really about? Like, is what you are saying like really like providing a sense of like utility and actually moving forward with these conversations? Like probably not.

[00:16:58] Like it's still your experience and you [00:17:00] are of course, like entitled to have it and you're allowed to feel, however you feel. It's just like, where's the most useful like space to express those things, I guess. And that was another thing that I started to just feel a lot more confident in because I would always feel like you know, like when you're like, uh, you're trying to like talk about these really difficult things but you just don't feel like there's any space to, or you're just so afraid that like, you know, I'm gonna lose my like teaching position or like the whole community is going to turn against me. Um, no, one's going to get it.

[00:17:28] Like, nobody's going to come to my class, all these things that you feel like define you as yoga teacher even though they really don't. You know, you start to like, at least for me, like started to have some fear of like, you know, what if I am more like outspoken about the stuff that like I always felt, but it always just was this like deep discomfort.

[00:17:44] I just like carried her with me around all the time. And by carrying around with me all the time, like never really saying anything it also perpetuates you know, dominant culture to be like, Oh, like, yeah, all this stuff we're doing is fine because if it wasn't like you would say something, right?

[00:17:59] Just like, well, there's [00:18:00] actually so much more to that because you're assuming that there's space for me to do that. You're assuming that I trust the relationship enough to do that. You're also assuming that like, you are open enough speaking to like, you know, especially like white cisgender, like people in yoga.

[00:18:13] You're assuming that I know that you're open and willing to hear this. And it's just so many assumptions there and we rely so much on black and Brown folks and trans folks to, to like, Be like, Oh, well, if you're you're uncomfortable, like, well, you should just say something, you know, you should just say something.

[00:18:26] And it's like, well, yeah, like more people are able to do that now because of podcasts like "Yoga is dead". It's providing like that feeling of like agency of like, Oh, there is something out there I can actually just like direct people to and be like, you should really listen to like episode number two.

[00:18:40] Whereas even though those conversations were happening here and there, it wasn't like on this like large scale in my experience. And I feel, I definitely feel like a lot more emboldened now than I did. Yeah, Melissa, your Instagram is like just a wealth of information and that's largely how I, I like follow and have gotten to know you and [00:19:00] watch your mom do yoga, which is such a treat.It is so special, she's so cute. But you talk a lot about decolonizing yoga and I, so Ashley and I are both yoga teachers and I have largely stepped away from teaching because I don't feel like I have done enough work to figure out how to teach yoga in a way that isn't appropriative.

[00:19:26] And it just doesn't feel like my space right now. So I practice alone and I practice by myself and I'm, you know, like growing that side of it, but I wonder what your thoughts are on how decolonizing looks like, what are the ways in which you're talking about that now and how can we all make steps towards a more decolonized yoga practice?

[00:19:47] Yeah, it's a, it's such a great point. I took this class this morning with my friend and colleague Avita bunchy. She teaches on this new platform called the connective co-op and it's basically a co-op of teachers [00:20:00] who all co-own this online studio and they're really committed to teaching classes to offer a yoga and movement and meditation in a decolonized way and in an anti-racist space. It's super cool. Encourage you to check it out. I'm just going to put a plug for her there. Um, but I go to her class now, like every Thursday and we always have conversations like this, like every morning before class. And one of the things she said today, I was telling her about an issue I was having, um, in a training I was in. She's like you know what happens so often is like, we feel like we can't change everything.

[00:20:30] And we can't like, we can't change everything, but that doesn't mean that we can't change something. And I think that overwhelm prevents like so many people, like myself included sometimes, from like continuing to do the work, but also still like showing up in those spaces. And I think that it's great that you're like you're having that introspection, right?

[00:20:51] That you're like, okay, I just need a pause. Doesn't mean that I'll never teach again, taking a pause because I want to do this in a way that feels intentional. And I think, um, I think that's [00:21:00] really beautiful. That's like, that's like what she said this morning. That's what I thought of. It's like, yeah, like you can't change like the whole, like, you know, mainstream wellness industry, but you can make that choice to be like, okay, I'm going to step back and see like, what is my role here?

[00:21:13] And like, what work do I need to do as an individual because I can't control like what every single person chooses to do? To me, like, that's a big aspect of like decolonizing the practice is like, it has to start from like the inside, whatever your background is. And that for me too, even though you know, I'm a first-generation American, like the daughter of immigrants, my parents also were born and grew up in like a neo-colonial era after India gained independence.

[00:21:42] And there's so much trauma whether like they, or their generation of conscious of, or not, there's so much trauma there as a result of it. And Susanna Barkataki talks about this a lot in her book "Embrace Yoga's Roots". It's like a lot about like post-colonial era and like neocolonialism. And it just really validated that feeling of like, yeah, like my parents are good [00:22:00] ujati Indian and those are my roots, but there's so much colonization there, there too, that they've held onto.

[00:22:07] And that like, other family members. My in-laws have held on to, by no fault of their own necessarily. Right. It's like the time that you're born into and it just like seeps through generations. And so I think even there's so many South Asian teachers out there that are doing that work within themselves too about like decolonizing their own mind and their own practice.

[00:22:26] And I would say like, that's another aspect of it is like it's an inside out job but if you grew up or are currently living on colonized land, or if your parents come from countries that have been colonized, like, just seeing how it's not just right now, like going back, like asking if you're able to, you know, asking your family about their experiences, trying to trace back to like your ancestors and like what their experiences might've been, I think is a huge part of it because our culture in like the West, or at least in the US it's very like individual.

[00:22:57] And we're seeing that so much now with COVID, right? How [00:23:00] like individualism, there's like a fight between like individualism and like collective care. And that collective care mentality is so innate to so many of us that come from countries like in South Asia and Africa, like that sense of collective care is like innate.

[00:23:15] It's like in our, in our blood in a way. And because of colonization, like in Western colonization over the whole world, like that gets, that's gotten lost so much. Um, so this idea of tracing back, what are your roots? What kind of, um, practices did your ancestors or your parents, you know, your ancestors do for that collective care?

[00:23:36] I think that's another thing that people can do. And, you know, Josie mentioning Jojo, Ashley, she did like an ayurveda workshop for women of color the other week and we talked about this so much about, she asked us to reflect on like, you know, what, what practices did you grow up with? Like for self care, you know, what did you learn in your household?

[00:23:53] Or what did your grandparents do? And it's interesting how even though my, my mom was so into ayurveda, but like, it [00:24:00] still took me a minute to think about, you know, just because like this idea of connecting with who came before you, it's not like inherent in our culture here. And I think that's a big part of like decolonizing is like, when you come, if you're a teacher and you're coming to your class to teach like first just acknowledging like, Hey, like I didn't, I didn't come up with this and that's okay.

[00:24:20] I got this from somewhere because someone taught me and someone taught them and someone taught them and learning about the lineage that you've studied in. Or if you're in a training that's kind of pulled from a lot of tradition seeing like, maybe there's the lack of that and what are the traditions that they pull from? And just acknowledging that with your students, like making that normal versus like, okay, like I came up with a really great class and we're going to do it.

[00:24:44] It's like first, like acknowledging where did these practices come from? They might not always be like India or South Asia, right? It could be from other places too but where did it come from? Like who did you learn from? And that decolonizing, I think another word that comes to me with that is like humility.

[00:25:00] [00:25:00] Yeah, I think in our culture here, this incentive individualism, there's so much importance placed on, you know, what did I do? Like how did I come up with this? And part of that is like really important and empowering. Right. But there's another part where I think like, it gets taken too far, you know, this is my brand.

[00:25:16] I copyrighted like these practices and it's like, well, yeah. I mean, no, no, no. And I get why people have to do that because that's our culture here. You know, you have to like protect yourself and like look out for yourself. But decolonizing too, I think is coming to your practice whether you're taking or teaching it with a sense of humility of like, you know, this came from somewhere else and it existed for a really long time. And it's important to know, like from where, and also being with that discomfort of like, I might not know, and I need to find out.

[00:25:49] I'm not sure if that totally answered your question. Yeah, it does. And you mentioned "Embracing Yoga's Roots", which is on my list of things to start decolonizing my own practice.

[00:25:58] Will you talk about that a little bit [00:26:00] about that book? Yeah, I haven't totally finished yet. Um, but I, I haven't been, I haven't been doing, um, have been doing a book club. We've met twice already. There are, I think, four sections in the book. So like each time we're breaking down a section, but yeah, I mean, it's a great, it's such a great book and resource that Susanna created.

[00:26:17] I think, I'm hoping that eventually it will become like a staple in like every yoga teacher training as like something you have to like read or at least outline before you even start taking the training. But yeah, there's this aspect of decolonizing. She actually talks about colonization before she even gets to decolonizing to be like, what, like, what has that looked like and how, you know, when we think of when we grew up in schools or at least I did like in New York and I learned about what colonization was, it was like very casual, right?

[00:26:46] Like around Thanksgiving, you learned about like what happened to native Americans? I went to this Catholic school when I was younger and we did like our feast, whatever, where everyone brought like a food from their heritage, which is so interesting. Right. We all have to bring a food from like our own culture, [00:27:00] but we had to dress up as pilgrims and native Americans.

[00:27:02] And I thought that was like, "Wait a second". And I was like seven at the time and even when I .was Seven I'm like, this is really uncomfortable but like, of course, like, I didn't know. Like this whole thing of like talking to your parents about what happened at school was not a thing for me when I was younger at all. Like school happened and then you came home and there was no like, mom, this really weird thing happened at school.

[00:27:22] I don't know if I should make cutout feathers and like put it on my head. Like you just did it. Yeah. And that's how I learned about it when I was like really young. It was like very stereotypical, really harmful generalizations and just very casual. That's like the one thing I remember is like, you know, this thing happened.

[00:27:41] Right. They like annihilated like an entire race and like, let's move on with the day. And it's like, wait, hold on a second. Why are we not like talking from at a young age, really ingraining in kids that like, Hey, this happened and it's like really, really bad. It should never happen again. It's happened like in so many countries [00:28:00] around the world, but like, this is why it's so terrible.

[00:28:02] And these, these are the ways that people can be harmed. People are harmed because of it, um, throughout generations and that's something Susana, like, at least from what I'm getting from it, she really addresses in the book is we were thinking about like decolonizing, which is such like a trending word right now.

[00:28:16] It's like, well, what does it actually mean to be colonized? And how would we think of it? How we learned it in school, it might be like, Oh, this Euro centered, like population came and tried to fix or civilize like black and Brown people in some way. We think of it that way as like, Oh, they cause all this harm and they took over the lens.

[00:28:36] It's like, yeah, like that is how it happened. And it still happens now. Like, but yeah, it can look in so many other ways that we're not even even conscious of, like when we teach a yoga class, but we don't even acknowledge, Hey, like yoga came from South, like these practices came from South Asia. We don't even, like, we're not even taught to even introduce that into a class.

[00:28:54] Like that's, that's like practicing at ratio and that's how colonization still shows up in our modern life. Yeah, [00:29:00] the white washing of history is harmful, is incredibly harmful. It's violence. So one of the ways we talk about actually doing the work of like real and true allyship is learning the history of what actually happened and not just from the colonizers.

[00:29:14] And that's really important aspect of the work for us. Yeah. Um, I'm sorry. I just, I'm kind of in a space when Melissa was talking, I actually kind of teared up because I miss this. I miss you. I miss JoJo. I miss like this community. I just haven't put myself in the space to talk about this. And you also said like for you, now that we have language, we can speak to ourselves before we hit the mat and how we present our class.

[00:29:50] And that's something that I've been doing. But I think because I, I've been trying to use my voice for so long in this space, like [00:30:00] being around people or having this conversation will just help me. It will help me with my practice. It will help me with my conversations around this because you're right.

[00:30:11] Like, this was taught to us, and now we have to go back and unlearn and put ourselves in positions where we're giving credit where it's due and that we're honoring the right people in the right spaces. So, I do get emotional. I, I mean, yeah, it spoke to me. But that's the power of community. I mean, that's why we talk about that so much.

[00:30:33] And that's what's been so hard about this year is like really missing community and being able to have those vulnerable conversations. You are such a, uh, an incredible influence on us and we are, we talk about you all the time. So it's been an honor to have you here. We are coming to the end of our time together.

[00:30:54] Any final question? I mean, you'll see me soon. Clearly, I [00:31:00] need you. I need the community, but yes, Melissa, thank you so much for being here. I mean, every time I see you, it's just this like sense of comfort. I immediately think of your practices. And I agree with Liz. When I'm not practicing, I'll look at you and watch you and like, yeah, I'm doing that with her in my head.

[00:31:20] So we appreciate you. We love you. And thank you and Liz, I think that's it. And that's all.

[00:31:30] Thank you for listening to Wellness Community Magic. This season is coming to a close soon while we work on some big projects, but you can keep up with us by following us on Instagram at TRILUNA_Wellness, or signing up for our newsletter at trilunawellness.com. You can also join our community on patreon at patreon.com/wellnesspodcast for early access to episodes, behind the scenes content and additional wellness resources, including a PDF [00:32:00] of our Downdog to Donuts workbook. Stay tuned for more updates and keep an eye out for us on clubhouse as well.

Podcast TRILUNA 3/22/21 Podcast TRILUNA 3/22/21

Ep015 - Anything Can Be a Pizza - Laura Lea

CW: Disordered Eating

In this episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James join Laura Lea for another delicious episode on peanut butter, pizza, and comfort food. They talk about bio-individuality, the difference between health coaches, dieticians, and nutritionists, and making just about anything into a pizza.

If you swear you can't cook, this episode is for you.

CW: Disordered Eating

Thanks for listening to Wellness, Community, Magic, a podcast with a pro-donut, anti-racist, Glenda-the-good-witch agenda. In this episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James join Laura Lea for another delicious episode on peanut butter, pizza, and comfort food. They talk about bio-individuality, the difference between health coaches, dieticians, and nutritionists, and making just about anything into a pizza.

If you swear you can't cook, this episode is for you.

Join us next week for a discussion about decolonizing yoga.

Links:

The Art of Home Cooking Box

LL Balanced

Simply Balanced Meal Plans, Use Discount code SimplyLL25 for 25% off the annual membership

Laura Lea's Instagram @lauraleabalanced

Stressless Eating Webinar

Full Transcript:

[00:00:00] We would like to open this episode with a trigger warning, as it contains discussion of eating disorders, body image issues, and/ or weight loss or management. If this does not feel safe for you at this time, please skip the episode and come back to it if and when you're ready. If I'm feeling anxious, if I'm feeling down, if I can turn it into a pizza and I can add a little, I always keep tomato paste in my refrigerator, my pantry. Tomato paste is a great substitute for a pizza sauce. And I actually like it better sometimes because it has really concentrated flavors. You just need a little bit. And then I do almost always have some kind of a cheese.

[00:00:37] That was the voice of Laura Lea Bryant, a certified health supportive chef, author and creator of LL Balanced and Simply Balanced Meal Plans. The goal of LL Balanced is to dispel common misconceptions of healthy eating as radical, expensive, and deprivation based with simple comfort food inspired and family-friendly recipes.

[00:00:57] In addition, Laura Lea hopes to increase [00:01:00] awareness about the relationship between food and mental, emotional, and physical health. Today, we're talking about bio-individuality, the difference between health coaches, dieticians, and nutritionists, and making just about anything into a pizza.

[00:01:16] Hi everyone. We're your hosts, Ashley Brooke James and Elizabeth Moore, co founders of TRILUNA and this is the Wellness Community Magic podcast. A podcast with a pro donut, anti-racist, Glenda- the- good- witch agenda. We're here to take on diet culture by making self-care realistic, sustainable, and inclusive. So settle in, get cozy and join us on our journey to build community and redefine wellness.

[00:01:41] Let's get started.

[00:01:46] First question, as always. Always. Liz, you know, I'm going to let you ask it today time. Okay. If you were a donut, what kind of donut would you be? [00:02:00] Okay, so I, I can't remember what I said in my answer, but I'm going to go with a PB and J filled yeast donut with a crumble topping. And that is a big change for me because I used to be like cake donuts all the way and then I had Connie and Johnny here in Nashville and I fell in love with like really good yeast donuts. But now that's, that's what I'm imagining.

[00:02:30] So since we're talking about that, how do you feel about this peanut butter on peanut butter reese's that has just come out? I mean, I love, peanut butter is definitely one of my like desert Island foods, but I want the chocolate with the peanut butter. I'm not saying I won't try it when I stop at a gas station the next time but I don't know if it'll be my favorite. It does seem a little bit like a classic that doesn't need to be messed with.

[00:03:00] [00:02:59] Yeah. It's a lot of peanut butter and I I'm sure they have figured out the formula, but to me it just seems like it would be a little dry. So what are your thoughts on cookie butter? So to me, they're sort of like different categories. So peanut butter, I'm never not in the mood for peanut butter. I think it goes with everything.

[00:03:19] Cookie butter, it to me, is a mood but it's incredible. Like the speculous cookie butter from Trader Joe's. It does need a little bit of like a savory pairing with it, you know, good sourdough with like some flaky sea salt. That sounds really boujee for cookie butter, but it, it's, it's next level. I, yeah, and I also think on like an apple or something that's tart helps cut the sweet for me to.

[00:03:46] Yeah. It needs that kind of pairing. I like that. If something is heavy, it has to have like a citrus or a vinegar or something to help cut it or I just like. Same thing with peanut butter. Peanut butter is too [00:04:00] thick for me. I got to have something to cut the texture. Well, I'm going to go ahead and tell y'all right now I'm already hungry and I know that the appetite is going to continue to build as we talk about food, because that's what we're talking about.

[00:04:14] We're talking about food and all types of different directions. First question for you, Laura is what are some of the common misconceptions around food and nutrition that you've noticed and how do you combat such deeply rooted beliefs? Yeah. This is such an interesting question. I think it, to me, it has sort of an umbrella answer first, which is this idea that health can fit under some kind of a dogma, which I know y'all are really, I like that you actually use that word anti or the phrase anti dogma.

[00:04:54] I think that is probably the overarching issue that I see that gets in the way [00:05:00] of people improving their health is that there's so much information overload and so many ideas of what's right or wrong and this notion of being on or off the, you know, the bandwagon. And I think that if people really had a better sense of their own bio-individuality and became their own health guru, obviously with the help of medical professionals, when necessary, we would eliminate like 95% of these barriers to entry in just making some, some improvements.

[00:05:29] And, and then that sort of dovetails into just small changes. I know it sounds so trite and cheesy, and I'm really bad at it too. I think probably all three of us and a lot of these listeners are really smart Type A kind of people, perfectionist, and we want to make these big leaps, but it really is the small, consistent changes that are so impactful at the end of the day, but they're not sexy and they're not glamorous, but they work.

[00:05:54] Yeah, that's something that I think we see a lot in, in the wellness field is like when you go [00:06:00] into trying to find food, relationships and diets, where the end result is weight loss, what you are looking for is a quick fix, because you want to see those results quickly. You want to see this happen overnight.

[00:06:13] And I, of course, I've done this all my life. I come from a history of eating disorders, which is how I landed here in the first place. But I would follow these groupings of food, paleo gluten-free, South beach, whatever it was at the time. And rather than listening to my body, I was being dogmatic about the rules of this one specific thing.

[00:06:32] And as it turns out, some of those foods inside of each of those like quote unquote healthy pairings were unhealthy for me. And it took me divorcing myself from dogma to actually start to build a relationship with the foods that best serve me and my health. Yeah, absolutely. No, I totally agree.

[00:06:51] My, one of my best friends, her name is Leanne Ellington. She teaches a transformational course called Stressless Eating and she always says [00:07:00] that every diet works until it doesn't. And that's so true because usually what catches up with you is either the restraint or, you know, the inflexibility or just the fact that it just didn't work for your body even if it works for millions of people.

[00:07:15] Yeah. And one thing you said on your intake form is wellness is a fluid awareness of what serves you and what doesn't serve you and realizing your best self. And that, that changes over time, hour to hour. It really does. I mean, I've had a very emotionally stressful few weeks and it was amazing that when I actually was listening to my body, I really wasn't craving like traditionally healthy foods.

[00:07:39] I really didn't want vegetables, salads, a lot of fiber, that just wasn't sitting with my gut because it was tied up in knots. So for me, for a couple of weeks, health really looked like, you know, I was making egg and cheese sandwiches on, I mean, it was on like a grainy bread, but it's not, you know, sort of going to be at the pinnacle of a, of a traditional [00:08:00] health meal.

[00:08:01] But that was just was what was sitting with me and then chocolate peanut butter smoothies and that sort of thing. And now I'm adjusting. I'm feeling a lot better so I can kind of incorporate some more veggies and it's feeling good now. Yeah, that's, that's so important. I mean, we talk a lot about adding in the sort of things that you need in your diet, rather than focusing on restriction.

[00:08:24] It's like, if you feel like you need something specific, you can add it to your diet and maybe it pushes out something else and maybe it doesn't, and that's totally fine. And if we're seeking comfort and things that remind us of home and remind us of what it's like to be comforted and to be with family and to be with loved ones, I think that's kind of beautiful.

[00:08:44] Yeah, I do too. It goes back to the primary foods, right? We, we really believe in primary and secondary foods and our primary foods are things that feed our soul and then the secondary foods are the things that we actually put [00:09:00] in our mouth, but we feel like if we focus on the primary foods, the secondary foods become more, they're just better.

[00:09:07] Yeah. You know, they're, they're pleasing to the soul. I have something that we may or may not want to talk about. And so I can ask it and if you're like, Oh, I don't want to go there then we can not go there. Okay. So I started my journey into, um, being a wellness professional. I put that in exaggerated air quotes because I started as a health coach.

[00:09:29] And that entailed a lot of what I ended up feeling like was being an underpaid and under-qualified therapist. Yeah. And I realized through my journey that I have, I actually have caused harm as a health coach, unqualified health coach. And I was thinking about this the other night. I did this, I went to Bali and did this detox training, which was just like, this most horrible science, just completely [00:10:00] false, weird, weird stuff.

[00:10:01] I met someone who was a breatharian and who claimed not to have eaten in five years. Like it was like all kinds, all 10 ways of weird. And I came back so confused in myself and my body. And I started teaching detox classes, like eating only raw foods for a week and then doing a juice cleanse and all this kind of stuff.

[00:10:19] And I had this one person who took my course, who was like, I can't do this, like this isn't working for me. I can't make this happen. And you know, my advice then was kind of just like, well, y'all like, you know, just like figure it out and like find your own way. And it's okay like if you, if you like mess up, you can get back into it.

[00:10:37] And I think back on that now. It was such horror because I know that that wasn't the advice that she needed. And I wonder, and you've spoken pretty openly on your Instagram lately about your journey from more traditional modes of health into this kind of like all inclusive and I wonder if you would talk a little bit about that journey?

[00:10:57] Yes, definitely. Oh my [00:11:00] gosh. I have so many feelings, just even imagining what that experience was like for you and that detox language and the raw vegan culture and all of that. And I definitely, I've been doing this for eight years, and for sure there have been times, especially in the first few years of my career where I was, I don't know that I ever espoused anything that was really like extreme, but I definitely was pretty dogmatic about things like no dairy, no gluten and didn't leave a lot of wiggle room for that.

[00:11:32] And I would teach classes on those things and I am sure whether it was, you know, harmful in the sense of, I sort of accidentally helped somebody restrict a whole food category or even just for myself, I think kind of digging myself deeper and deeper into these ideas that I learned in culinary school.

[00:11:52] I had, I went to an amazing school, but it definitely, and maybe it's not like this anymore, but they definitely had some pretty [00:12:00] strong ideas about what is considered healthy. And I took that and I ran with it without doing any of the research or even checking into my own body. I digest dairy like totally fine. I have no problem with dairy. I actually don't even have a problem with like crappy dairy. Um, but I was so sure that there was a right way and a wrong way.

[00:12:21] So I do, I mean, I am, one of the things I'm working on in therapy is the difference between guilt and shame. And I'm learning to have, you know, to say, okay, I feel a little guilty that I did that, but not to have shame around it because we're all doing our best at any given time and all I can do is now show up with what is an even larger community and say, Hey, you don't need to necessarily restrict anything. You just do what works best for you and try to help people now. And I don't think we're alone in that. I think the health food world just started to snowball and you all asked a question which maybe we'll get to, but [00:13:00] this makes me think of it.

[00:13:01] Something along the lines of in the health food world, what is the one thing that I would change, I think is one of the questions. And I would change, and again, I did this myself, is that everyone is an armchair dietician. Everyone's an armchair therapist and we really need to stop that and we need to be very, very careful about staying in our lanes and referring to medical professionals.

[00:13:24] Because dieticians got a bad rap for a while because they, they do still talk about some kind of, what we consider anything to be antiquated notions of health, but they still went to school for this and they've done clinicals and they have so much more knowledge than so many of these armchair nutritionists and therapists and health coaches. And I'm not saying that there aren't people who can help if they're just a coach, but you just have to be really, really careful with that.

[00:13:52] Yeah. And I think that is a really important conversation that we've been having recently is like, what is the difference between a dietician, a nutritionist and a [00:14:00] health coach. And in this field, those three categories have been at war with each other for years. When really I think that we need to be working together to create an ecosystem for help.

[00:14:13] Like health coaches and nutritionists should be getting information from dieticians. Health coaches should be helping them implement it. Nutritionists sit in the middle trying to make all of that work together instead of this like back and forth of hating on each other for, for different reasons. Right. Because everybody has their niche, right? Yeah. With that being said, can you tell us the difference between what you do, which is a health supportive chef and a nutritionist or dietician?

[00:14:39] Yes. So I agree. I will just echo that I think everyone should have a team. And now we are living in a time where, while not everybody has access to a team of professionals around them financially, or even in terms of access to the internet, most people do have access to the internet. And thankfully, especially with 2020, There [00:15:00] are a lot more services that can offer things like therapy, like chatting with a doctor who can help you for a lot less money.

[00:15:06] Um, you, you know, obviously do your research and make sure it's legit but I do recommend that people have a team, but I also recognize that that is a privilege so I would say as a health supportive chef, I'm honestly not sure. I feel like I could've given you a really clear definition eight years ago, but again, it's, now this becomes really kind of ambiguous fluid thing, but I feel like my job is to just explain to people.

[00:15:28] One, to sort of explain the nuances of different types of food, how not necessarily that, you know, your something is going bad is going to happen to you if you eat industrial ground beef, you know, from a factory farm, but that there are nuances and you can get pasture raised beef, if you can afford it.

[00:15:45] And that it might be something that could, uh, be a little bit more anti-inflammatory and sort of just explain some of those details that might be able to improve somebody's health without telling them that they need to do that. And then the other part of what I do is [00:16:00] offering recipes that are mostly whole foods based, which I personally think whole foods.

[00:16:05] There's no sort of moral judgment. It just is what it is. It's data, you know, it's pretty close to what comes out of the ground. And so I try to make recipes that are mostly whole foods based that are still going to be sort of comfort food inspired. I actually love, Ashley, what you said about primary and secondary foods.

[00:16:21] I think that y'all's notion of that would really like, you know, put people in a tailspin in a good way, because we would think of primary first as eat the rainbow and all the nutrients, but really that primary first, and I think of this too, what is going to excite you? What's a dish that's going to sound good to you? And then once you're excited about it, then I make it taste good. You know, as opposed to just saying, I'm just gonna make it super nutrient dense and you have to find a way to, to like it. But I should also say just, I'm not, I'm so what I'm not is I'm not anyone who can give you any kind of medical advice.

[00:16:55] I can't smudge, um, sort of like disordered eating or certainly eating [00:17:00] disorders. I can't suggest supplements to you, or really anything, anything suggestive about something that a person might specifically change about their health routine. I think that's a really important distinction. I mean, and I went to a health coaching school, which is where the primary and secondary food came from.

[00:17:18] I have some questions now about how well accredited that was a, that's a whole nother conversation, but I think the role of a health coach is, and we now don't do individualized health coaching because I have found in my experience, it is almost impossible to do one-on-one health coaching without some sort of disordered food behavior, history of eating disorder and/ or relationship with food that needs attention coming up.

[00:17:47] It just always did. And I always felt like I am not qualified to continue this conversation with you. You need to seek someone who can actually do this for you. What my job is, is to take or what our job now, is to take the [00:18:00] advice of professionals and say this is how you implement it. This is how you do it in your everyday life.

[00:18:05] This is how you make health more accessible in your every day if you want it. This is a tool. We are here for it to give you tools for wellness. We're not here to pass moral judgment on you if you don't want to use them. We're not here to tell you that you should or should not. We're just here to offer them if you want to accept them and use them and make them fit into your own life.

[00:18:26] Absolutely. One of the things that I remember most about our first walking date, Laura, is that, you know, we had a lot of social justice things going on last year and you were looking for a way to reconnect with the community, be the community and so your approach on that was to cut out some of like the boujee inspired meals and break it back to a place of normalcy. Can you talk to us about that and your [00:19:00] approach moving forward with that?

[00:19:01] Yeah. I had a very humbling experience in 2020 where I realized that, and this kind of goes back to aspousing things sort of inaccurately. I spent I think the majority of the last eight years telling people that my ingredients and my recipes are accessible and they're actually not to most people. Most people can't afford the ingredients that I use in my recipes. Now in my little community they could, and that was my world, but actually on a, on a bigger scale, which is what I would like to have access to, most people don't.

[00:19:41] And even, you know, things like uh, there is, um, there's a plant-based culture that tries to say that everybody can eat a vegan diet and that's, that's also just not true. There's a lot of people who have to rely on milk and cheese to feed their families. So it was really humbling for me to go shopping for some of the [00:20:00] ingredients because shelves were cleared out and I had lost all of my streams of income.

[00:20:04] So not only could I not find a lot of those ingredients because they are such specialty ingredients, but I couldn't even really be spending a lot of money on almond flour and coconut flour at that time. So I thought, yeah, how can I, how can I make an impact through what my skillset is? And that is to, um, I actually started these, these meal plans, the Simply Balanced Meal Plan community, which is digital meal plans that are batch cooking style. Which again, for a lot of people who are really busy especially if they have multiple children, the idea of making something once and then eating it throughout the week, while again, not sexy and not glamorous, is actually a much better fit for people than having to be in the kitchen every single night after they're working all day.

[00:20:47] And so that was one of the reasons I created these meal plans is for this batch cooking style but also because I wanted to make all the meal plans using ingredients that you can find at Walmart. So I think I shopped for some of the [00:21:00] plans that Aldi, which is also definitely a much lower price point, but I try to make sure there's nothing specialty in there. And if for some reason I did use, I don't know, let's say I used dates, which are not super accessible to a lot of people, I'll come up with an alternative for it.

[00:21:15] So I really don't do very much. And actually Walmart, one of the things I created is a What's Healthy at Walmart Guide, because Walmart actually has chia seeds and almond flour and a lot of specialty ingredients. But there's also the education component. If someone's not familiar with it, then they're not going to buy it or know what to do with it. So I actually still kind of stay away from all of that stuff in my meal plans. And that's just taken on a life of its own. I'm continuing to grow that. And that's really where my heart and soul is. And if I write a third book which I'm hoping to, I want to shop for all of it at Walmart and make sure that these are ingredients that, someone who's close to the standard American diet, has access to and understands.

[00:21:53] I love it. I feel like clapping on a podcast is weird, but I would clap to that.

[00:22:00] [00:21:59] So y'all see why I like fell in love. I was like, this is beautiful. I love this, but that's a journey. That's a journey I've been on too. You know, when I first started, I was like convinced that I had to have chia seeds in everything. And I had to, and I was, I was gluten free for seven years and it did have a major impact on my health at the time.

[00:22:17] Now I eat gluten and it's totally fine but for whatever reason, when I cut it out in the beginning, it helped me a lot. And so I've, I've kind of had to backpedal thinking like I, when I first went gluten-free there was nothing. There was, there weren't like gluten-free cookies in the supermarket. So I had to figure out how to just not have those products. And so I kind of learned how to eat around it. And then once all those products came in, I started using them a lot. And so I had to kind of unlearn. And of course, like being gluten-free played into my desperate fear of carbohydrates that I had developed as a young woman in America with an eating disorder.

[00:22:56] So there has been so much unlearning, but you know, we also have, I have a lot of [00:23:00] grace for like we say, non diet but that is like, we don't want you to go on a diet because you feel like you don't like your body or you don't like your size or whatever. If you want to that's fine. It's totally your perogative.

[00:23:11] But also if you have food issues or if there are, you have food allergies, you have auto-immune disease, your relationship with food can be really, really important and also really difficult to navigate if you have a history of eating disorders. Um, and so I've had to actually go into ED therapy to kind of figure out how to navigate the messy tangled web that has all of those things in one space.

[00:23:36] Yeah. So Laura, you mentioned Simply Balanced Meal Plans. Can you tell me how that was developed and tell us, like, just tell us what the subscriptions look like. Just tell us all the things. Yep. So yeah, so really the two, the two main premises of the meal plans is one, this batch cooking style. And it's not for everybody, [00:24:00] but the people who need it really, really need it.

[00:24:02] As much as I love to cook, I don't want to be stuck in my kitchen every single night, especially on really, really busy days. So the idea is every month I release these meal plans and they're digital, and it gives you an ingredient list that you can get it pretty much any grocery store. And then the ingredient list is going to turn into anywhere from four to six recipes that you'll prep and you'll cook on the weekend and then you eat them throughout the week.

[00:24:24] And I try to be really thoughtful about the type of recipes I develop. So they are ones that kind of get better with time or add a fresh component to it to make it a little bit more exciting and interesting. But it's, it's been so fun and rewarding because even, I mean, I'm getting husbands reaching out to me saying thank you because I do one major kitchen cleanup for the week and one major, one major grocery shopping trip.

[00:24:47] And the other thing that I tried to do is use up all the ingredients so you're not going to be left over with half of an onion or sort of like, uh, I'm not going to tell you to buy a jar of pomegranate molasses and you use one tablespoon. And if for some [00:25:00] reason there are leftovers, with every single meal plan I come up with really detailed notes and tips for how to use those leftovers, how to store, how to freeze, how to reheat.

[00:25:09] And it's interesting. So, so I've been doing that now, um, for probably nine months. And I do think that the meal plans get more and more fun over time, but people definitely have their favorites. But the number one question I get is why don't you release them weekly? Now, realistically, part of it is because for me to release them weekly, I wouldn't be able to put the kind of quality time that I put into them out.

[00:25:30] But the other reason I do it, and again, it's like, I understand that there are a lot of fancy meal planning apps out there which are basically a big database. They do an algorithm that aggregates and spits out, here's five recipes to make Monday through Friday. But those don't teach you how to become a more proficient cook.

[00:25:50] All it is is giving you something to follow every night which means that as soon as you don't have that in front of you, you're not going to know what to do. I, I encourage people to take these meal plans [00:26:00] and make them week after week and repeat them so that you start to actually build your skillset, build your pantry, be able to customize it to your body.

[00:26:08] Well that didn't really make me feel good last week so maybe I'm going to switch that rice for cauliflower rice or something. And so I'm really trying to give people a sense of empowerment and control in the kitchen so that if you don't have your meal plans you've learned so much about it. So, yeah, it's been, it's been awesome.

[00:26:24] And, um, I, I do, I have a discount code for your community if you do want to share it. Y'all are more than welcome to, but there are two options. There's an annual membership, which is what the discount will be for, but we also have a free one month trial and then it's $9.99 after that a month and people save up to $75 a week on their grocery list because I am so careful to make sure that these are really inexpensive grocery lists. We're talking like 50 bucks for the entire week. You're welcome to sort of jazz it up and add things, but people are saving so much money. So it's, it's free for a month that people want to check it out.

[00:26:57] It sounds amazing and it also sounds [00:27:00] like the exact reason why we put you in our most recent project which is The Art of Home Cooking. That whole book is about learning how to cook even if you are not a chef. At least once a week someone tells us, but I can't cook. I don't know how to cook. I can't cook. And I come from a family where my, that was what my mother says to me still every day.

[00:27:22] I don't know how to cook. I don't know why you love this. I don't get it. But we put in this book, we put like the basics of flavors and the basics of how to balance them and how to fall in love with the process of cooking. And so you were just such a natural and perfect fit for this workbook and we are so excited to have you in it and it comes out.

[00:27:43] It will be out by the time this launches. We're so excited. And the whole thing, I don't know if you know this, maybe you do it by now, but the whole thing is inspired by like a day in Greece sitting on the beach eating [00:28:00] all of your favorite foods with your favorite people until the day just goes by and all of a sudden you're drinking a glass of wine and you've been sitting at the same table for like five hours.

[00:28:08] What I would give for us to be doing that right now. Oh my God. She just made me want to just go somewhere else. And if y'all could see Laura's face right now, just her eyes got really, really big and I love it. I love it. I mean, we have been talking about going back to when we were six, sixteen, twenty one recently, and just kind of revisiting purpose and what we were meant to do in life.

[00:28:39] And we feel like, we just did a speech on purpose and productivity, and we really talked about having multiple purposes in life. And, you know, you have the meal prep. A lot of people don't know you have cookbooks and things like that. So what would the 16 year old self, what would your 16 year old self [00:29:00] say to you now looking at that you have two best-selling books and you have meal plans later? What do you think that 16 year old you would say?

[00:29:09] I, first of all, thank you all for including me in this. It is truly an honor. And I think, I can't believe it's taken us so long to collaborate and connect, but now I do feel like maybe I'm overstepping, but I want to have a longterm relationship with you all and let our communities really intertwine. And I just love that. To me that's the best thing about this, this crazy world is finding these connections. So thank you. We're in this together, forever. You're stuck. You're stuck. I feel the same way. I love that.

[00:29:39] I love this question because, because I've been working through and in therapy with this idea of not enoughness and my own sense of self-worth is something that I do struggle with. But when I put myself in the shoes of my 16 year old self I'm really proud of what I've done. And I think it's awesome and it's [00:30:00] so much cooler than what I thought I was going to do. I would have said that's an amazing feat.

[00:30:06] The idea of even writing, you know, one book or even an ebook would have felt, I think intimidating and the fact that I've put these two books out in the world is really cool. And that I've impacted a community of people and, um, brought joy and health to their life. Whatever that means to them is so awesome. And it's uncomfortable for me to even say that because I do, I have such a hard time receiving any kind of positive reinforcement and giving it to myself, but I'm learning that that is not selfish, that's self care. And it also helps the people. It helps people, you know, and so it's sort of this, like, it's just a win-win. So I loved thinking about that even though it was a little uncomfortable.

[00:30:48] What did your 16 year old self think you would be doing right now? So I thought it was going to be a lawyer. I like, we called it mock trial and it was really fun. It was these [00:31:00] like murder cases, you know, these fake murder cases that we would bring to trial and at 16, that was super cool. And that's all I knew of being a lawyer. And then when I moved to New York after college and started working at a law firm, I realized that very, that's like 1% of lawyers actually get to do cool, fun stuff like that.

[00:31:16] Not that there's anything wrong with that. I just knew that wasn't the right fit for me. So that's sort of where I would have imagined myself. So, how did you go from being a lawyer to being a chef? That's a great question. You know, it was really, gosh, it was so haphazard but basically what happened is I moved to New York and I started a job as a paralegal and about three, I mean, it couldn't have been more than three or four weeks into what I thought would be the beginning of the rest of my life, I realized that I didn't want to be a lawyer.

[00:31:48] And looking back, maybe it was the context of 2008 in a corporate environment, but I just knew that wasn't for me. I mean, I remember the associates coming up to me and like whispering to me, don't do it, [00:32:00] like runaway! I just realized it wasn't for me and then I had this deep kind of sinking feeling in my gut which carried over into the next four years where I suffered from really, a lot of anxiety. And I'll just like, give a trigger warning. I did suffer from a lot of disordered eating and, and was really, um, not well in that way. And honestly, I think it just took enough times of the definition of insanity, just doing the same thing over and over again until I finally tried something different.

[00:32:30] And eventually after about four years of living this, you know, partying, New York life, eating takeout all the time and over-exercising and all of that, I just took a break and I stopped going out and I stopped really drinking. And so I was by myself a lot and most of my friends were still doing that. So I was, I was on my own and I started, I had this like North face backpack and I would put it on and I would go wander the city and I would check out the farmer's markets. And I would sit in cafes and I, I just got to know myself and [00:33:00] I really fell in love with fresh food and started cooking.

[00:33:03] Doing that for, I mean, it was probably six months and all of a sudden I realized I was just so much happier. I felt purposeful. My anxiety was so much better. And I know that's something that y'all talk about. And Ashley and I have talked about it a bunch is just that, that mental health connection. Because it's a more prevalent topic now but back in 2011 people really were not talking about the connection between your body and mental health; between what you eat and mental health.

[00:33:33] Yeah, I think that it is such a beautiful thing that both you and Liz shared something that is very beautiful is that you are going through this and you both found your way back to building a good relationship with food by changing your mindset and getting in the kitchen and cooking. I just think that that is just so powerful instead of just like leaving it alone and allowing yourself to go down this dark hole, you were like, look, [00:34:00] I'm going to take this opportunity to build a different relationship with food. I'm gonna get in the kitchen and make amazing food and feed myself and others and build what we talk about, what's feeding our soul and I just, I thank you both for being open today and sharing this information. But I think people can learn a lot from that by changing the perspective of things and building a relationship.

[00:34:27] So that's such a beautiful thing. Why did you decide to focus on mental, emotional, and physical health as it relates, well, I guess this is a reason, as it relates to food, right? Yeah, it was, you know, it's, it's interesting. Cause there was, there's a woman named Kimberly Snyder who was one of the leaders and, well she was one of the first people in wellness and she, she definitely, she's she's vegan and, and she has some, I think.

[00:34:56] I know she's been a health coach or dietician to a lot of [00:35:00] celebrities, but she was still one of the people talking about food and your mental and emotional states in the beginning and I didn't hear anyone else talking about that. And I had had this incredible, almost miraculous response to eating better and taking better care of myself in my brain and my anxiety.

[00:35:18] I, I'm not going to pretend like I haven't struggled with anxiety since. I think in some ways it is part of you always, if it is, it is sort of, I think in my nature but I can really combat it and help mitigate it when I'm taking better care of myself. So that's really what, it was my anxiety that really got me interested in that connection and reading Kimberly's books early on and it was a total light bulb moment for me.

[00:35:42] And then seeing how I carry that into my year in culinary school and the relationship's important. I'd become kind of antisocial and I think that was the missing piece for me and my mental health. And I started to form these really close friendships with my culinary school classmates and that just filled in that gap. And just [00:36:00] showed me that it's, it's this amalgam of all these different things matter when it comes to the way you show up and how you feel in your heart and your body and your soul. And I can be, honestly in the last two and a half, three years I have eaten like way less traditionally healthy than I did in probably the prior five to six years. And I hands down felt better in my body and in my brain.

[00:36:26] And, um, so much of it as the thoughts that we, that we, the things we think about what we're doing and not just the thing itself. Yeah. That's a really good callback to, to both your and our philosophy of bio-individuality because you can have healthy foods.

[00:36:44] Like for me, restriction is unhealthy. If I'm restricting in any way, I go immediately back into my disordered habits. So like what might be a healthy diet for someone can be an anxiety spiral for me, you know? And so it's like, I think it's really important when we're [00:37:00] having conversations about mental health that we continue, like we're doing now, to check back to it being such a personal and deeply individual process, right.

[00:37:11] When, you know, I think it's easy in wellness and we see this all the time to make these large general statements or assumptions about mental health or about, you know, like sugar is bad, but like, is that true? Like. Right. If I do not have a problem with sugar, then is sugar bad for me if I eat it?

[00:37:30] You know, like, and so I think we, we, we make all these broad generalizations when really it's such a nuanced conversation. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, this has been amazing. It has been full of vulnerability, openness, real conversations, and. Just like the first time we met, I feel, I knew it was going to be this way when then when the three of us came together.

[00:37:55] So we appreciate you. The world wants to know. I want to know, [00:38:00] what is your go-to dish? Okay. So I am going to say that my go-to is anything that I can turn into a pizza. So basically anytime I can find something that can make a crust, whether it's like a burrito, whether it's nan, whether it's a cauliflower crust.

[00:38:20] If I am feeling, if I'm feeling anxious, if I'm feeling down, if I can turn it into a pizza and I can add a little, I always keep tomato paste in my refrigerator, my pantry. Tomato paste is a great substitute for a pizza sauce and I actually like it better sometimes because it has a really concentrated flavor so you just need a little bit.

[00:38:37] And then I do almost always have some kind of a cheese. So you can, you know, you can sort of healthify it and you can add veggies on top, or you could use, you could do a kind of a cauliflower crust, or you could just get the 99 cent Trader Joe's pizza dough and make a pizza.

[00:38:52] But, um, yeah, anything that I can make toppings and slice it up and hold it with my hands is the best. That's a [00:39:00] great answer. It is a wonderful answer. We've been really on a heavy frozen pizza kick lately so I think that sounds better. Yeah, that sounds a lot better. Have you had the Trader Joe's the new, like garlic pesto pizza from their freezer, from the freezer section?

[00:39:15] It's so good. I need to make a Trader Joe's run. Yeah. We appreciate you so much. We appreciate you for collaborating with us on our first collaboration because there will be many more with you. We cannot wait until everyone gets their hands and eyes on this box. Laura has not opened her box yet.

[00:39:37] She has it. So you guys have to check out Instagram to figure out like. Yeag, we're going to, I'm so excited to get into this. So people will be able to, I know I'm going to keep it on my IGTV so whenever people hear this, they can go and check it out. Well, Laura Lea, we love you. And we appreciate you. I'm excited.

[00:39:56] I'm excited about the book. I'm excited about the [00:40:00] boxes. I said the book; I'm excited about, we have a book. We wrote a book. I mean, we wrote a book, but I meant to say box because you have to buy the box to get the book. Not really, but I just want you to buy the box. I want you to buy all the things, but Liz, I think that's it and that's all.

[00:40:18] Thank you for listening to the Wellness Community Magic podcast. If you liked this episode, leave us a review or drop us a message and tell us your favorite part. You can find us on Twitter at wellness_pod or online at TRILUNAwellness.com/podcast. Tune in next week for more tough but necessary conversations about the future of self-care.

[00:40:38] If you're interested in learning more about TRILUNA or ordering one of our wellness gift boxes for a loved one or yourself, check out our website at TRILUNAwellness.com. [00:41:00]

Podcast TRILUNA 3/15/21 Podcast TRILUNA 3/15/21

Ep014 - Calling All White Women - Courtenay Rogers

In this episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James join Courtenay Rogers to discuss moving from awareness to action. This episode is all about doing the work, getting out of your echo chamber, and committing to anti-racism.

This episode is for everyone, especially if you are looking for more direction in your anti-racism journey.

CW: Racism

Thanks for listening to Wellness, Community, Magic, a podcast with a pro-donut, anti-racist, Glenda-the-good-witch agenda. In this episode, Elizabeth Moore and Ashley Brooke James join Courtenay Rogers to discuss moving from awareness to action. This episode is all about doing the work, getting out of your echo chamber, and committing to anti-racism.

This episode is for everyone, especially if you are looking for more direction in your anti-racism journey.

Join us next week for a delicious episode on peanut butter, pizza, and dogma.

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